Karlheinz Schreiber returned to the Commons Ethics committee on Tuesday--avec ses notes! As with last Thursday's proceedings, the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
Szabo (chair, LPC): I want to proceed to the questions by the members. Schreiber has answers to the questions posed last Thursday. New questions may have already been answered by Schreiber's opening statement. Not answering a question is not an option. I will understand that some answers may damage another person unjustly. I'm willing to entertain any explanations you might have. You're protected by parliamentary privilege--any testimony you provide can't be used against you in any other proceeding. Understand?
Schreiber: yes, thank you.
Goodale (LPC): I'm sitting in for Mr. Thibault today, as he is storm strapped. Today, with your papers, I hope to pursue issues. A question about Airbus--Airbus and German government had deep interest in getting Canadian contract. Did Airbus authorize any payments to be made to facilitate contracts? If so, how much? To whom? When? Were these amounts deductible as expenses on Airbus side?
Schreiber: In any case, it is not money you spent, it is based on success. Commission. Official agreement through Airbus through a company...not mine...but, when the success is there, and you get a commission on business, GCI, if want to get paid in Switzerland, not illegal as long as they pay taxes in Canada, they can decide whatever they want. That was my job: When speak of "helpful donations," always a discussion between industry and government (they do this all over the world), have to have possibility of deductions.
***interruption*** (MP wants chairman to force a response)
Schreiber: only business from MBB is that they took parts from company in Germany to Canadian company in Fort Erie, where they had other shareholders. "Donations"--take money from our left pocket and put it in our right pocket and you say, "I need helpful donations to sell material to my own company"--this is why they invent something, to show a project finally at an end to satisfy Revenue Germany and to get a deduction for helpful donations.
12:02 PM
Goodale (LPC): you made arrangement with BM on June 23, 1993 at Harrington Lake to provide him with 500K, is that correct?
Schreiber: No.
Goodale (LPC): Correct me...
Schreiber: We discussed situation and what I could do. Agreed that, when he was back in Montreal law-practice that it was more/less based on his belief that "Kim Campbell was going to win the election," and have another majority government; he would be in a comfortable position. Easy to understand how it is today, right? I said, "Ok, I'm prepared to do that, I will go down and see what's available. I have funds available for the Bear Head Project (BHP) and I will let you know." It was an agreement in princ. that we would work together. Did not speak explicitly about money.
Goodale (LPC): Return to that conversation...can you tell me, was there anyone else present at that particular conversation?
Schreiber: No. Only him and me.
Goodale (LPC): any material among that which you have filed, like personal diaries, that could verify the exact time and location of the meeting?
Schreiber: Yes, it was shown in the media. I have a page from that affidavit--telephone # and day--the media found out the service that drove me there b/c Mulroney had sent a limousine. There's no other evidence.
Goodale (LPC): regarding June 23, 1993 Harrington Lake meeting, was it true that the first cash payment made to BM in Aug 1993 was made at Mirabel Airport?
Schreiber: yes. After the first meeting, I checked to see what was left in the BHP and there was 500K left. I'm pretty sure that I had no discussion with BM before meeting him at the airport (August) but then for sure I told him clearly that there was 500K available for service when it comes to a success.
Goodale (LPC): at that meeting...
Szabo (chair, LPC): sorry, Mr. Goodale, your time is up. Mme. Lavallée?
12:07 PM
Lavallée (BQ): I'd like to begin by thanking you for the "Christmas presents you have showered upon us"...as far as the nature of the contact w/BM is concerned, you said you gave him 300K b/c he was having money problems. You also said it was for the BHP and the pasta company--you also referred to the "reunification of Germany" (in last Thursday's testimony). I want to know why you presented several versions...I'd like to know what is the truth? What new "front operations"--where did 300K come from? This "BRITAIN" account, did this money come from Airbus?
Schreiber: it's a mix-up with the media. I had more than one reason to help BM. Because of the problems he was having--the furniture (selling it from Sussex); Elmer MacKay said BM was "out of his mind" with no money and nearly crazy when they took the furniture away. The Project was not there, he is leaving and so one thing was all the reasons that you mentioned--the reunification of Germany, for e.g. Mitterand and Thatcher were against it, but Mulroney, James Baker, Bush (41), Kohl and Gorbachev were for it. "If you would have had a wall through your city, 60 million in jail, you would be grateful too"...Also, the same BHP--Thyssen had already spent so much money and felt betrayed that it didn't take place, b/c at the time, we didn't know that BM had killed BHP (found out in 1995). I had my doubts that Kim Campbell would have ever got a majority government but BM was very powerful and I thought, perhaps...But the pasta had nothing to do w/this at the time, b/c didn't even exist. This project (BHP) came to nothing b/c Kim Campbell was not PM and Mulroney could do nothing. The first time we spoke about pasta was Dec 1994 in New York, when I realized we could do nothing about BHP. Forget the pasta thing. Nothing to do with the payments (300K).
Lavallée (BQ): you said you were grateful to BM. You said this was for the reunification of Germany, but also for what he had done in the Airbus affair.
Schreiber: no.
Lavallée (BQ): You weren't grateful? Not happy?
Schreiber: no...no...you see, ma'am, that Airbus was a deal between Strauss, Mitterand and, AFAIK, Brian Mulroney. So, I receive a laugh when reports surfaced that BM was involved with Airbus. When somebody told me that Air Canada is a "Liberal Property" (WTF?!). If BM showed up, just 5 miles away from Air Canada property, they would have done the opposite of everything they wanted. No. The first time I heard that BM could have been involved was when Fred Doucet asked me one day--there was always a fight between Doucet and Moores and Gary Ouellet. They were shareholders. And the money that came to Switzerland belonged to the shareholders of GCI. So Doucet wanted to know from me if the money in the Swiss Accounts belonged to the shareholders of GCI. Doucet wanted to know if the figures from Moores (letter from Moores-->KHS read in opening stmt) were correct. I did not want to be involved and I told him, "Leave me alone. You speak to Moores. I can't go into your business." He said, "I want you to be sure it's from this account," money will be transferred to law firm in Geneva.
Lavallée (BQ): just like to know--where did money come from that was in the "BRITAIN" account?
Schreiber: came from account which was called "FRANKFURT," which stood for "Frank Moores" and "GCI" and it was my account. I had reserved this money because BM was leaving and nothing was done with BHP and I was still hanging around and I felt horrible for all the money Thyssen had spent. I had left this money for me, to make sure I could continue.
Coming up next: Part V ("Hey, why don't you look at the documents?!"), or Return to Part III ("Saudis, Pasta, and the Unstoppable Kim Campbell")
'Helpful Donations' and that Dirty, Dirty Liberal Airline
Szabo (chair, LPC): I want to proceed to the questions by the members. Schreiber has answers to the questions posed last Thursday. New questions may have already been answered by Schreiber's opening statement. Not answering a question is not an option. I will understand that some answers may damage another person unjustly. I'm willing to entertain any explanations you might have. You're protected by parliamentary privilege--any testimony you provide can't be used against you in any other proceeding. Understand?
Schreiber: yes, thank you.
Goodale (LPC): I'm sitting in for Mr. Thibault today, as he is storm strapped. Today, with your papers, I hope to pursue issues. A question about Airbus--Airbus and German government had deep interest in getting Canadian contract. Did Airbus authorize any payments to be made to facilitate contracts? If so, how much? To whom? When? Were these amounts deductible as expenses on Airbus side?
Schreiber: In any case, it is not money you spent, it is based on success. Commission. Official agreement through Airbus through a company...not mine...but, when the success is there, and you get a commission on business, GCI, if want to get paid in Switzerland, not illegal as long as they pay taxes in Canada, they can decide whatever they want. That was my job: When speak of "helpful donations," always a discussion between industry and government (they do this all over the world), have to have possibility of deductions.
***interruption*** (MP wants chairman to force a response)
Schreiber: only business from MBB is that they took parts from company in Germany to Canadian company in Fort Erie, where they had other shareholders. "Donations"--take money from our left pocket and put it in our right pocket and you say, "I need helpful donations to sell material to my own company"--this is why they invent something, to show a project finally at an end to satisfy Revenue Germany and to get a deduction for helpful donations.
12:02 PM
Goodale (LPC): you made arrangement with BM on June 23, 1993 at Harrington Lake to provide him with 500K, is that correct?
Schreiber: No.
Goodale (LPC): Correct me...
Schreiber: We discussed situation and what I could do. Agreed that, when he was back in Montreal law-practice that it was more/less based on his belief that "Kim Campbell was going to win the election," and have another majority government; he would be in a comfortable position. Easy to understand how it is today, right? I said, "Ok, I'm prepared to do that, I will go down and see what's available. I have funds available for the Bear Head Project (BHP) and I will let you know." It was an agreement in princ. that we would work together. Did not speak explicitly about money.
Goodale (LPC): Return to that conversation...can you tell me, was there anyone else present at that particular conversation?
Schreiber: No. Only him and me.
Goodale (LPC): any material among that which you have filed, like personal diaries, that could verify the exact time and location of the meeting?
Schreiber: Yes, it was shown in the media. I have a page from that affidavit--telephone # and day--the media found out the service that drove me there b/c Mulroney had sent a limousine. There's no other evidence.
Goodale (LPC): regarding June 23, 1993 Harrington Lake meeting, was it true that the first cash payment made to BM in Aug 1993 was made at Mirabel Airport?
Schreiber: yes. After the first meeting, I checked to see what was left in the BHP and there was 500K left. I'm pretty sure that I had no discussion with BM before meeting him at the airport (August) but then for sure I told him clearly that there was 500K available for service when it comes to a success.
Goodale (LPC): at that meeting...
Szabo (chair, LPC): sorry, Mr. Goodale, your time is up. Mme. Lavallée?
12:07 PM
Lavallée (BQ): I'd like to begin by thanking you for the "Christmas presents you have showered upon us"...as far as the nature of the contact w/BM is concerned, you said you gave him 300K b/c he was having money problems. You also said it was for the BHP and the pasta company--you also referred to the "reunification of Germany" (in last Thursday's testimony). I want to know why you presented several versions...I'd like to know what is the truth? What new "front operations"--where did 300K come from? This "BRITAIN" account, did this money come from Airbus?
Schreiber: it's a mix-up with the media. I had more than one reason to help BM. Because of the problems he was having--the furniture (selling it from Sussex); Elmer MacKay said BM was "out of his mind" with no money and nearly crazy when they took the furniture away. The Project was not there, he is leaving and so one thing was all the reasons that you mentioned--the reunification of Germany, for e.g. Mitterand and Thatcher were against it, but Mulroney, James Baker, Bush (41), Kohl and Gorbachev were for it. "If you would have had a wall through your city, 60 million in jail, you would be grateful too"...Also, the same BHP--Thyssen had already spent so much money and felt betrayed that it didn't take place, b/c at the time, we didn't know that BM had killed BHP (found out in 1995). I had my doubts that Kim Campbell would have ever got a majority government but BM was very powerful and I thought, perhaps...But the pasta had nothing to do w/this at the time, b/c didn't even exist. This project (BHP) came to nothing b/c Kim Campbell was not PM and Mulroney could do nothing. The first time we spoke about pasta was Dec 1994 in New York, when I realized we could do nothing about BHP. Forget the pasta thing. Nothing to do with the payments (300K).
Lavallée (BQ): you said you were grateful to BM. You said this was for the reunification of Germany, but also for what he had done in the Airbus affair.
Schreiber: no.
Lavallée (BQ): You weren't grateful? Not happy?
Schreiber: no...no...you see, ma'am, that Airbus was a deal between Strauss, Mitterand and, AFAIK, Brian Mulroney. So, I receive a laugh when reports surfaced that BM was involved with Airbus. When somebody told me that Air Canada is a "Liberal Property" (WTF?!). If BM showed up, just 5 miles away from Air Canada property, they would have done the opposite of everything they wanted. No. The first time I heard that BM could have been involved was when Fred Doucet asked me one day--there was always a fight between Doucet and Moores and Gary Ouellet. They were shareholders. And the money that came to Switzerland belonged to the shareholders of GCI. So Doucet wanted to know from me if the money in the Swiss Accounts belonged to the shareholders of GCI. Doucet wanted to know if the figures from Moores (letter from Moores-->KHS read in opening stmt) were correct. I did not want to be involved and I told him, "Leave me alone. You speak to Moores. I can't go into your business." He said, "I want you to be sure it's from this account," money will be transferred to law firm in Geneva.
Lavallée (BQ): just like to know--where did money come from that was in the "BRITAIN" account?
Schreiber: came from account which was called "FRANKFURT," which stood for "Frank Moores" and "GCI" and it was my account. I had reserved this money because BM was leaving and nothing was done with BHP and I was still hanging around and I felt horrible for all the money Thyssen had spent. I had left this money for me, to make sure I could continue.
Coming up next: Part V ("Hey, why don't you look at the documents?!"), or Return to Part III ("Saudis, Pasta, and the Unstoppable Kim Campbell")
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