The Right Honourable Brian Mulroney (or "BM," as I've come to know him) presented himself to the Commons Ethics committee for an exhausting 3 1/2 hours on Thursday. As with the Schreiber testimony (Nov 29, Dec 4, Dec 6, and Dec 11) the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you, I'm going to give the floor to Mme. Lavallée
10:09
Lavallée (BQ): I'll be turning my time over to Mr. Ménard.
Ménard (BQ): first, the payment that you received was for how much?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: 75K
Ménard (BQ): and it was in cash?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Ménard (BQ): I'm curious to know, in what denominations?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: 1000 dollar bills (Oopsie!)
Ménard (BQ): what did you do w/that 75K?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I deposited it in a safety deposit box at home. As I was saying, nothing was touched b/c I simply used a small portion of these funds for the expenses I incurred in my international mandate. That was all.
Ménard (BQ): so you got that as a retainer, in cash...why deposit it in a safety deposit box? You feel that was money that you earned, so why not invest it somewhere?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: we were in l'Estérel, I put it in the safety deposit box, and when we moved to Montréal, I did exactly the same thing.
Ménard (BQ): how long did you keep it there (in the safety deposit box)?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Until it was settled. As I said in my statement, I paid my expenses and then, once the relationship was over, I compensated myself for my professional work.
Ménard (BQ): did you keep track of your "professional work?" (*snerk*)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (annoyed) yes, I said so.
Ménard (BQ): yes, you did speak about it, but you had some accounting, some time-sheets?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I didn't have any accounting, (Oopsie!) but as you know, M. Menard, when you're travelling internationally, I met w/Chinese leadership, met the head of the gov in Russia, head of gov in France, and a number of leaders in the USA. A number of trips I made for the same purpose as the one I described w/Mr. Yeltsin. (Ah yes...it was all very sophisticated and...how you say? Internationale *snort*)
Ménard (BQ): that's what I'm trying to understand...you had 75K in cash in a safety deposit box...you were travelling. Did you regularly get money from that (box) to get money for the trip?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, not at all, I used my credit card. When I was travelling internationally. As you know, as a lawyer in Montréal, I was travelling for a number of clients, so I used my credit cards, and at the end, I assigned a very modest percentage of that to Mr. Schreiber's acct. The rest I kept either for the office or for myself.
Ménard (BQ): did you keep track of that? Any notes on the amount you attributed? Where did you write it down?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I kept it in the records I had w/me, I gave a file to Mr. Yeltsin...(Huh? We have to go dig up Boris to find out?!)
Ménard (BQ): We don't have time to go into all those details...so you were travelling internationally for other clients. Isn't it true that for all the other clients, notes were taken, there was some accounting done, so that each client could see how much you spent or how much you allocated?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Ménard (BQ): so that was done at a big office, like the one in which you worked. Why, in the case of this client, did you not deposit it in a bank account, as an advance, as you did from other clients?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I told you, it was an error in judgement on my part. Should have proceeded differently, and I've come here to the cmte to apologize for that.
Ménard (BQ): what I'm intrigued by is that an error of judgement--it took you so long to notice it. In what year did you notice it?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: it is a human error. When you recognize it...it includes all the aspects of human error. (seriously, dude...not kewl)
Ménard (BQ): but if I understand correctly, the error was ongoing, you received other payments in cash, and rather than put them in a bank, rather than accounting for a percentage of costs to the client, in this case you went to your safety deposit box at home...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I told you, at the beginning that this was a sort of "watching brief," that Mr. Schreiber gave me for the international work and I think I told you as well that this was the only client that had compensated me this way. And the reason Mr. Schreiber gave me cash, was that he dealt only in cash. And I told you that I should not have accepted it--I should have asked for a more transparent way of receiving money.
Ménard (BQ): why--if you thought this was legitimate money, and you said you would have preferred to receive a cheque, so you did have some concern about receiving large amounts of cash--so why not keep it in a bank, so you could justify the travel costs that you were incurring from Mr. Schreiber, as compared to costs for other clients?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: that was a personal decision. Remember, I didn't claim any expense from the Canadian gov, I absorbed all the expenses for myself. I declared all of it (as income).
Ménard (BQ): that was not my question. Moving on. For the 2nd payment, Nov 1993 or Dec--that payment was in cash as well. How much was that payment?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: 75K
Ménard (BQ): 75 as well. Ok, for the third payment at the Pierre Hotel, in NYC. Also received in cash. You brought the money back here?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I left it in New York.
Ménard (BQ): did you travel to NY to get the money? You just left it in NY?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I left it in NY until I declared it as income. And the amount of expenses that I absorbed, at which point it became my money and I allowed myself to use it. It wasn't in an account, it was in a safety deposit box.
Ménard (BQ): do you realize that the way in which you acted in this matter did not make it appear as though it was a legitimate transaction?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: but it was not only legitimate, it was perfectly legal. But I will concede that the circumstances might lead some to some apprehension or some notion of impropriety. That's why I have accepted some responsibility for it. (Gee, that's mighty big of ye, Brian...)
Ménard (BQ): one last question: do you know why the 1000 dollar bills were eliminated?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes, to eliminate 1000 dollar transactions
Ménard (BQ): b/c usually they're used for illegal ends.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (pissed) yes, but you're not suggesting that there was anything illegal in the trans'n in question?
Ménard (BQ): no, I'm saying that it should have suggested to you that there was something illegal there.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (angry) No, there was nothing illegal there! This was a legitimate transaction! Absolutely legit and legal. Nothing illegal whatsoever. It should have suggested to me, that I should be cautious and careful, I do concede that.
Ménard (BQ): you were acting like someone in an illegal transaction.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (mad) No! I was acting like someone involved in a legal transaction, but one that raised certain questions, however.
Szabo (chair, LPC): I neglected to ask, during Thibault's questions, that you provide the document you were reading from. You also indicated that you had an agreement w/your law firm for certain international business. Was this legal work?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, business.
Szabo (chair, LPC): did you file income tax returns in any other jurisdiction than Canada? (remember, Szabo is a CPA!)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: probably in the USA, under our tax agreements, if I was receiving revenue from activities in the US, which I was.
Szabo (chair, LPC): referring to the safety deposit box in your home, but you also referred to a ledger you were keeping? You have a written ledger?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, that was 15 yrs ago. As soon as the tax issues were resolved, I disposed of those documents. (Major Oopsie!)
Szabo (chair, LPC): could you, at this time, later, provide us w/a general summary of the disposition of the $75K?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I would be happy to, sir. I'd be happy to record the various trips on those 4 or 5 important occasions, plus the full report I gave to Mr. Schreiber, in the presence of someone else...that time in NY.
Szabo (chair, LPC): who was that someone else?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Fred Doucet.
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you. I should also indicate that Mr. Mulroney was invited to be here and he is here voluntarily and fully cooperative. (Gawd, Szabo's waaaaay too nice, eh?) Moving on to Mr. Pat Martin...
Coming up next: Part V ("Winnipeg in January? Now, that's downright nutty!"), or return to Part III ("International Man of Mystery")
Painting: "Gentlemen's Club," by Jeff Williams
It was all very sophisticated
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you, I'm going to give the floor to Mme. Lavallée
10:09
Lavallée (BQ): I'll be turning my time over to Mr. Ménard.
Ménard (BQ): first, the payment that you received was for how much?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: 75K
Ménard (BQ): and it was in cash?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Ménard (BQ): I'm curious to know, in what denominations?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: 1000 dollar bills (Oopsie!)
Ménard (BQ): what did you do w/that 75K?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I deposited it in a safety deposit box at home. As I was saying, nothing was touched b/c I simply used a small portion of these funds for the expenses I incurred in my international mandate. That was all.
Ménard (BQ): so you got that as a retainer, in cash...why deposit it in a safety deposit box? You feel that was money that you earned, so why not invest it somewhere?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: we were in l'Estérel, I put it in the safety deposit box, and when we moved to Montréal, I did exactly the same thing.
Ménard (BQ): how long did you keep it there (in the safety deposit box)?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Until it was settled. As I said in my statement, I paid my expenses and then, once the relationship was over, I compensated myself for my professional work.
Ménard (BQ): did you keep track of your "professional work?" (*snerk*)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (annoyed) yes, I said so.
Ménard (BQ): yes, you did speak about it, but you had some accounting, some time-sheets?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I didn't have any accounting, (Oopsie!) but as you know, M. Menard, when you're travelling internationally, I met w/Chinese leadership, met the head of the gov in Russia, head of gov in France, and a number of leaders in the USA. A number of trips I made for the same purpose as the one I described w/Mr. Yeltsin. (Ah yes...it was all very sophisticated and...how you say? Internationale *snort*)
Ménard (BQ): that's what I'm trying to understand...you had 75K in cash in a safety deposit box...you were travelling. Did you regularly get money from that (box) to get money for the trip?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, not at all, I used my credit card. When I was travelling internationally. As you know, as a lawyer in Montréal, I was travelling for a number of clients, so I used my credit cards, and at the end, I assigned a very modest percentage of that to Mr. Schreiber's acct. The rest I kept either for the office or for myself.
Ménard (BQ): did you keep track of that? Any notes on the amount you attributed? Where did you write it down?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I kept it in the records I had w/me, I gave a file to Mr. Yeltsin...(Huh? We have to go dig up Boris to find out?!)
Ménard (BQ): We don't have time to go into all those details...so you were travelling internationally for other clients. Isn't it true that for all the other clients, notes were taken, there was some accounting done, so that each client could see how much you spent or how much you allocated?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Ménard (BQ): so that was done at a big office, like the one in which you worked. Why, in the case of this client, did you not deposit it in a bank account, as an advance, as you did from other clients?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I told you, it was an error in judgement on my part. Should have proceeded differently, and I've come here to the cmte to apologize for that.
Ménard (BQ): what I'm intrigued by is that an error of judgement--it took you so long to notice it. In what year did you notice it?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: it is a human error. When you recognize it...it includes all the aspects of human error. (seriously, dude...not kewl)
Ménard (BQ): but if I understand correctly, the error was ongoing, you received other payments in cash, and rather than put them in a bank, rather than accounting for a percentage of costs to the client, in this case you went to your safety deposit box at home...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I told you, at the beginning that this was a sort of "watching brief," that Mr. Schreiber gave me for the international work and I think I told you as well that this was the only client that had compensated me this way. And the reason Mr. Schreiber gave me cash, was that he dealt only in cash. And I told you that I should not have accepted it--I should have asked for a more transparent way of receiving money.
Ménard (BQ): why--if you thought this was legitimate money, and you said you would have preferred to receive a cheque, so you did have some concern about receiving large amounts of cash--so why not keep it in a bank, so you could justify the travel costs that you were incurring from Mr. Schreiber, as compared to costs for other clients?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: that was a personal decision. Remember, I didn't claim any expense from the Canadian gov, I absorbed all the expenses for myself. I declared all of it (as income).
Ménard (BQ): that was not my question. Moving on. For the 2nd payment, Nov 1993 or Dec--that payment was in cash as well. How much was that payment?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: 75K
Ménard (BQ): 75 as well. Ok, for the third payment at the Pierre Hotel, in NYC. Also received in cash. You brought the money back here?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I left it in New York.
Ménard (BQ): did you travel to NY to get the money? You just left it in NY?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I left it in NY until I declared it as income. And the amount of expenses that I absorbed, at which point it became my money and I allowed myself to use it. It wasn't in an account, it was in a safety deposit box.
Ménard (BQ): do you realize that the way in which you acted in this matter did not make it appear as though it was a legitimate transaction?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: but it was not only legitimate, it was perfectly legal. But I will concede that the circumstances might lead some to some apprehension or some notion of impropriety. That's why I have accepted some responsibility for it. (Gee, that's mighty big of ye, Brian...)
Ménard (BQ): one last question: do you know why the 1000 dollar bills were eliminated?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes, to eliminate 1000 dollar transactions
Ménard (BQ): b/c usually they're used for illegal ends.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (pissed) yes, but you're not suggesting that there was anything illegal in the trans'n in question?
Ménard (BQ): no, I'm saying that it should have suggested to you that there was something illegal there.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (angry) No, there was nothing illegal there! This was a legitimate transaction! Absolutely legit and legal. Nothing illegal whatsoever. It should have suggested to me, that I should be cautious and careful, I do concede that.
Ménard (BQ): you were acting like someone in an illegal transaction.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (mad) No! I was acting like someone involved in a legal transaction, but one that raised certain questions, however.
Szabo (chair, LPC): I neglected to ask, during Thibault's questions, that you provide the document you were reading from. You also indicated that you had an agreement w/your law firm for certain international business. Was this legal work?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, business.
Szabo (chair, LPC): did you file income tax returns in any other jurisdiction than Canada? (remember, Szabo is a CPA!)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: probably in the USA, under our tax agreements, if I was receiving revenue from activities in the US, which I was.
Szabo (chair, LPC): referring to the safety deposit box in your home, but you also referred to a ledger you were keeping? You have a written ledger?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, that was 15 yrs ago. As soon as the tax issues were resolved, I disposed of those documents. (Major Oopsie!)
Szabo (chair, LPC): could you, at this time, later, provide us w/a general summary of the disposition of the $75K?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I would be happy to, sir. I'd be happy to record the various trips on those 4 or 5 important occasions, plus the full report I gave to Mr. Schreiber, in the presence of someone else...that time in NY.
Szabo (chair, LPC): who was that someone else?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Fred Doucet.
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you. I should also indicate that Mr. Mulroney was invited to be here and he is here voluntarily and fully cooperative. (Gawd, Szabo's waaaaay too nice, eh?) Moving on to Mr. Pat Martin...
Coming up next: Part V ("Winnipeg in January? Now, that's downright nutty!"), or return to Part III ("International Man of Mystery")
Painting: "Gentlemen's Club," by Jeff Williams
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