Karlheinz Schreiber returned to the Commons Ethics committee for the fourth time on Tuesday, Dec 11. As with the three previous meetings (Nov 29, Dec 4, and Dec 6) the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
"It started in Alberta..."
12:49 PM
Lavallée (BQ): returning to the May 8 letter, b/c what you said earlier, Mr. S, was nothing. You told me zero. You made some threats to BM, in writing, and said you didn't know anything--it was all rumours. How could BM see that as a threat? You didn't even know the name of his lawyer. You said you knew nothing.
Schreiber: well, BM may have an understanding what other people say about this. On top of this, it was not a threat from my side. I asked him to do what he was asking for for 12 years--get a public inquiry. When you look at his book now, and my last letter, and he says we have to fight, well I'm a very good fighter, exactly on that battlefield--of Mr. Harper and BM, but it looks to me like I'm the only warrior here...
Lavallée (BQ): how much did BM get--not just hearsay. What is the information you have about payments from Moores, etc? You want to fight, so give us some information here.
Schreiber: I understood this agreement was made before the events started to get BM to become PM. Wolf was key w/money. Ouellet key. Karlheinz Schreiber. None of us are in BM's book. I wanted to remind him that I was present when all this started, although it was Alta Nova, not GCI when it started. And yes, I think he should know what's going on and that there are other people coming forward. I told you what I said in the letter, I wanted him to tell the truth. There was no problem w/300K, I don't know why the man is so scared. I don't know why he didn't fulfill his commitments and our lawsuit since 1997.
Schreiber: There was another crazy event when he suddenly, out of the blue, not that long ago, when he said, "I have rented a suite at the Chateau Laurier to embarrass him" and the PM (Harper), on the event when BM was honoured for furthering the Ukranian/Canadian relationship. I don't know what that was about, it was nonsense. And he was so wild that in the middle of the night I had to call my lawyer--I have to say this, Elmer MacKay had had enough of all this and didn't want to be involved anymore, so we called a lawyer in Edmonton and...he said, "tell Mr. Schreiber I'm helping him," but the next morning, when we tried to serve him (BM), he told the person who was there to serve him, "Oh no, no, this is all over, we are friends again." So, Ma'am, I don't understand; perhaps you will find out on Thursday (when BM testifies).
Lavallée (BQ): you didn't answer my questions. You didn't give me any figures or concrete facts to support the May 8 letter. I want to talk about GCI. GCI and Moores were lobbying for Airbus. They said their clients were MBB helicopters. Can you describe the involvement of Moores and GCI in Airbus?
Schreiber: this is why I showed you the letter--GCI has nothing to do w/Airbus. No direct contract w/Airbus industrie. But when the president from GCI has contact w/chairman of Airbus, well, this is in the documents. If you say it's not helping, I can't help you.
Lavallée (BQ): who at GCI worked directly or indirectly for Airbus?
Schreiber: not aware whether anybody ever worked directly for Airbus. Only rumours. I could fill a week w/just stories about this. You don't even know so far, how the Airbus deal was done. And one day, I think the day will come, I will say how fantastic it was done. It started in Alberta, not even Ottawa.
Lavallée (BQ): you know how it was done?
Schreiber: it was in the way that Mr. Strauss (and this is described in article by Mathias), that Strauss said to me, "Heinz, either you're an idiot or a genius, but they're always close together,"...well, I was not an idiot, and the European aircraft industry survived. (*big smiles*)
Lavallée (BQ): how did it work, this deal? You said it was brilliant, but how did it work?
Schreiber: the Trojan Horse was domestic flying rights. Flying in competition w/Air Canada would have bankrupted Air Canada. Because they had the wrong equipment, the Airbus had 1/2 the fuel consumption and 2 & 3 times the passenger and cargo capacity. But when you saw the fear in the Americans, and that was in the Star article, it was as soon as the Airbus would fly on soil against the Boeing and American aircraft. Everyone would have lost. It was Maxward (phonetic-sp??), Canadian, it was Air Canada and it was 110 Airbus to the US. I'm very proud of this, ma'am (*smiling*)
Lavallée (BQ): You do look proud.
(Don Newman interrupting CBC Newsworld)
Schreiber: ...by flying against Air Canada, Air Canada was forced to buy equipment of similar quality to compete w/Airbus. We tried first w/Western Pacific, an Airline belonging to Alberta, in combination w/Maxward (phonetic-sp??).
Lavallée (BQ): is this the type of conversation you had with BM, b/c you met w/him 5 or 6 times. I imagine you didn't just transfer cash. You must have had some kind of conversation, not just, "Here's 300K, bye"
Schreiber: I never mentioned Airbus to him. I was very sensitive to this. I met w/Claude Taylor (Air Canada Pres/CEO) and I didn't mention it. I was approached by other members of the board of Air Canada, Peter Borden who wanted 400K from me, and I would never get the Airbus contract done--ma'am, the nonsense that went on. It's a fight for money and it's a world you're not in, and something you don't understand.
12:59 PM
Martin (NDP): Mr. Hiebert seemed to have some detailed information about a meeting in your lawyer's office w/you, your lawyer and the RCMP. Did you tell Mr. Hiebert about your meeting? Or did your lawyer?
Schreiber: no.
Martin (NDP): well, then I wonder who would have given Mr. Hiebert such detailed info (....missed something here....) Ok, Mr. Mulroney is going to come here on Thursday, and he's probably going to say that taking money from you was the biggest mistake of his life. He's already said that. Did he ever try to give it back to you?
Schreiber: the problem is, he tells me that he doesn't owe me any. So, I say, if you don't owe me any money, then you've either done something for me, or I owe you something. And I would like to ask him, "do you get the idea, since I didn't send money to your lawyer in Geneva at the request of Fred Doucet, that I owe you the money?" Oh! I have a lot of questions for him... (very animated and excited)
Martin (NDP): your friend Elmer MacKay did a lot for you over the years.
Schreiber: (very defensive) he did NOT (do) a lot for me, not at all. He tried to do a lot for the people of Nova Scotia and for Thyssen. And it went so far...
Martin (NDP): (interrupting) I don't have a lot of time... Was he a shareholder at GCI?
Schreiber: No
Martin (NDP): Did he ever receive any money from you?
Schreiber: No. He's a rich man. You know that, don't you?
Martin (NDP): I do. Mr. Schreiber, perhaps the most valuable thing you've shared w/us today is your comment that the same kind of influence peddling and lobbying is going on today w/guys like Fred Doucet running roughshod over everything that's good and decent about Canadian business (*puke* "good and decent?" Srsly?)
Schreiber: you have only to look at the budgets, sir. Where is the money: Transport and DND. Now look at the Minto (sp??) deal, look at the deal in Nova Scotia, going to the submarines...and then Peter MacKay was moved to DND--I could say, "My God, maybe he was moved there b/c External Affairs has no budget." Then you say, "who governs Canada?" Maybe the PM doesn't even know. Could be...the PM is so isolated, maybe it's the same group from Mulroney?
Martin (NDP): the Con gov still has never implemented the regulations "to tie a bell around the lobbyist's neck" that we passed in the Fed Accountability Act (pointing sanctimoniously at CPC guys). Just one year ago--anniversary is Wed, I believe. They say that the difference between lobbying and influence peddling is about 5 yrs in prison. Do you believe the type of lobbying by the Doucets of the world is more accurately described as influence peddling?
Schreiber: it is. In every way. I don't want to be mean to you, but if you would be looking for donations from your constituents, b/c there's an election coming, you would not go to old folks home, you would not go to mental clinics, you would go to people w/money. And this was (Franz Josef) Strauss' problem. Constantly we had elections going. He had to beg. Now, this is fantastic thing, you are together w/entrepreneur of a company, the unions...if you ruin a contract w/ this company, let's see if you're elected next time.
(passing to Mulcair)
1:04 PM
Mulcair (NDP): we seem to forget that this is all to do with the settlement of the Airbus affair. In March 1988, Air Canada buys 1.8 mill in Airbus (planes/equip). In June 1993, BM no longer PM. In March 1995, there's an article in Der Spiegel ("The Tycoon from Alberta") in which KHS is named. A request is made to the Swiss authorities. This letter is published in the Financial Post. On 20 Nov 1995, BM launches lawsuit against Gov Canada. For $50 mill. In Jan 1997, BM receives 2.1 mill from taxpayers to settle AB matter. Between the publication of your name in der Spiegel and Jan 1997, did anyone from the RCMP speak to you, Mr. Schreiber?
Schreiber: this is a joke. If they had spoken to me, there'd be no settlement. No.
Mulcair (NDP): but there's a spokesperson from RCMP that claims you had been spoken to.
Schreiber: but if the RCMP had asked me, I would have asked them, "how could there ever be a settlement?" Not one word from nobody.
Mulcair (NDP): it's important to understand...
Schreiber: the RCMP lies again.
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you colleagues. Forgoing in-camera today, will happen tomorrow instead. Mr. Schreiber, *order please* as you know, Mr. Schreiber, we're moving forward w/other witnesses. You had asked for an opportunity to tell your story to Canadians. To the best of your ability, have you brought forward all the relevant docs to this cmte?
Schreiber: yes, but I can bring even more.
Szabo (chair, LPC): we'll undoubtedly have you back, Mr. Schreiber.
*Adjourned*
Return to Part VII ("This isn't 24/7 for me...I have a life, you know"), or return to the beginning of the series, Part I ("B-b-b-benoît and the Jets").
Alberta Wild Rose picture: Northernblue.ca
"It started in Alberta..."
12:49 PM
Lavallée (BQ): returning to the May 8 letter, b/c what you said earlier, Mr. S, was nothing. You told me zero. You made some threats to BM, in writing, and said you didn't know anything--it was all rumours. How could BM see that as a threat? You didn't even know the name of his lawyer. You said you knew nothing.
Schreiber: well, BM may have an understanding what other people say about this. On top of this, it was not a threat from my side. I asked him to do what he was asking for for 12 years--get a public inquiry. When you look at his book now, and my last letter, and he says we have to fight, well I'm a very good fighter, exactly on that battlefield--of Mr. Harper and BM, but it looks to me like I'm the only warrior here...
Lavallée (BQ): how much did BM get--not just hearsay. What is the information you have about payments from Moores, etc? You want to fight, so give us some information here.
Schreiber: I understood this agreement was made before the events started to get BM to become PM. Wolf was key w/money. Ouellet key. Karlheinz Schreiber. None of us are in BM's book. I wanted to remind him that I was present when all this started, although it was Alta Nova, not GCI when it started. And yes, I think he should know what's going on and that there are other people coming forward. I told you what I said in the letter, I wanted him to tell the truth. There was no problem w/300K, I don't know why the man is so scared. I don't know why he didn't fulfill his commitments and our lawsuit since 1997.
Schreiber: There was another crazy event when he suddenly, out of the blue, not that long ago, when he said, "I have rented a suite at the Chateau Laurier to embarrass him" and the PM (Harper), on the event when BM was honoured for furthering the Ukranian/Canadian relationship. I don't know what that was about, it was nonsense. And he was so wild that in the middle of the night I had to call my lawyer--I have to say this, Elmer MacKay had had enough of all this and didn't want to be involved anymore, so we called a lawyer in Edmonton and...he said, "tell Mr. Schreiber I'm helping him," but the next morning, when we tried to serve him (BM), he told the person who was there to serve him, "Oh no, no, this is all over, we are friends again." So, Ma'am, I don't understand; perhaps you will find out on Thursday (when BM testifies).
Lavallée (BQ): you didn't answer my questions. You didn't give me any figures or concrete facts to support the May 8 letter. I want to talk about GCI. GCI and Moores were lobbying for Airbus. They said their clients were MBB helicopters. Can you describe the involvement of Moores and GCI in Airbus?
Schreiber: this is why I showed you the letter--GCI has nothing to do w/Airbus. No direct contract w/Airbus industrie. But when the president from GCI has contact w/chairman of Airbus, well, this is in the documents. If you say it's not helping, I can't help you.
Lavallée (BQ): who at GCI worked directly or indirectly for Airbus?
Schreiber: not aware whether anybody ever worked directly for Airbus. Only rumours. I could fill a week w/just stories about this. You don't even know so far, how the Airbus deal was done. And one day, I think the day will come, I will say how fantastic it was done. It started in Alberta, not even Ottawa.
Lavallée (BQ): you know how it was done?
Schreiber: it was in the way that Mr. Strauss (and this is described in article by Mathias), that Strauss said to me, "Heinz, either you're an idiot or a genius, but they're always close together,"...well, I was not an idiot, and the European aircraft industry survived. (*big smiles*)
Lavallée (BQ): how did it work, this deal? You said it was brilliant, but how did it work?
Schreiber: the Trojan Horse was domestic flying rights. Flying in competition w/Air Canada would have bankrupted Air Canada. Because they had the wrong equipment, the Airbus had 1/2 the fuel consumption and 2 & 3 times the passenger and cargo capacity. But when you saw the fear in the Americans, and that was in the Star article, it was as soon as the Airbus would fly on soil against the Boeing and American aircraft. Everyone would have lost. It was Maxward (phonetic-sp??), Canadian, it was Air Canada and it was 110 Airbus to the US. I'm very proud of this, ma'am (*smiling*)
Lavallée (BQ): You do look proud.
(Don Newman interrupting CBC Newsworld)
Schreiber: ...by flying against Air Canada, Air Canada was forced to buy equipment of similar quality to compete w/Airbus. We tried first w/Western Pacific, an Airline belonging to Alberta, in combination w/Maxward (phonetic-sp??).
Lavallée (BQ): is this the type of conversation you had with BM, b/c you met w/him 5 or 6 times. I imagine you didn't just transfer cash. You must have had some kind of conversation, not just, "Here's 300K, bye"
Schreiber: I never mentioned Airbus to him. I was very sensitive to this. I met w/Claude Taylor (Air Canada Pres/CEO) and I didn't mention it. I was approached by other members of the board of Air Canada, Peter Borden who wanted 400K from me, and I would never get the Airbus contract done--ma'am, the nonsense that went on. It's a fight for money and it's a world you're not in, and something you don't understand.
12:59 PM
Martin (NDP): Mr. Hiebert seemed to have some detailed information about a meeting in your lawyer's office w/you, your lawyer and the RCMP. Did you tell Mr. Hiebert about your meeting? Or did your lawyer?
Schreiber: no.
Martin (NDP): well, then I wonder who would have given Mr. Hiebert such detailed info (....missed something here....) Ok, Mr. Mulroney is going to come here on Thursday, and he's probably going to say that taking money from you was the biggest mistake of his life. He's already said that. Did he ever try to give it back to you?
Schreiber: the problem is, he tells me that he doesn't owe me any. So, I say, if you don't owe me any money, then you've either done something for me, or I owe you something. And I would like to ask him, "do you get the idea, since I didn't send money to your lawyer in Geneva at the request of Fred Doucet, that I owe you the money?" Oh! I have a lot of questions for him... (very animated and excited)
Martin (NDP): your friend Elmer MacKay did a lot for you over the years.
Schreiber: (very defensive) he did NOT (do) a lot for me, not at all. He tried to do a lot for the people of Nova Scotia and for Thyssen. And it went so far...
Martin (NDP): (interrupting) I don't have a lot of time... Was he a shareholder at GCI?
Schreiber: No
Martin (NDP): Did he ever receive any money from you?
Schreiber: No. He's a rich man. You know that, don't you?
Martin (NDP): I do. Mr. Schreiber, perhaps the most valuable thing you've shared w/us today is your comment that the same kind of influence peddling and lobbying is going on today w/guys like Fred Doucet running roughshod over everything that's good and decent about Canadian business (*puke* "good and decent?" Srsly?)
Schreiber: you have only to look at the budgets, sir. Where is the money: Transport and DND. Now look at the Minto (sp??) deal, look at the deal in Nova Scotia, going to the submarines...and then Peter MacKay was moved to DND--I could say, "My God, maybe he was moved there b/c External Affairs has no budget." Then you say, "who governs Canada?" Maybe the PM doesn't even know. Could be...the PM is so isolated, maybe it's the same group from Mulroney?
Martin (NDP): the Con gov still has never implemented the regulations "to tie a bell around the lobbyist's neck" that we passed in the Fed Accountability Act (pointing sanctimoniously at CPC guys). Just one year ago--anniversary is Wed, I believe. They say that the difference between lobbying and influence peddling is about 5 yrs in prison. Do you believe the type of lobbying by the Doucets of the world is more accurately described as influence peddling?
Schreiber: it is. In every way. I don't want to be mean to you, but if you would be looking for donations from your constituents, b/c there's an election coming, you would not go to old folks home, you would not go to mental clinics, you would go to people w/money. And this was (Franz Josef) Strauss' problem. Constantly we had elections going. He had to beg. Now, this is fantastic thing, you are together w/entrepreneur of a company, the unions...if you ruin a contract w/ this company, let's see if you're elected next time.
(passing to Mulcair)
1:04 PM
Mulcair (NDP): we seem to forget that this is all to do with the settlement of the Airbus affair. In March 1988, Air Canada buys 1.8 mill in Airbus (planes/equip). In June 1993, BM no longer PM. In March 1995, there's an article in Der Spiegel ("The Tycoon from Alberta") in which KHS is named. A request is made to the Swiss authorities. This letter is published in the Financial Post. On 20 Nov 1995, BM launches lawsuit against Gov Canada. For $50 mill. In Jan 1997, BM receives 2.1 mill from taxpayers to settle AB matter. Between the publication of your name in der Spiegel and Jan 1997, did anyone from the RCMP speak to you, Mr. Schreiber?
Schreiber: this is a joke. If they had spoken to me, there'd be no settlement. No.
Mulcair (NDP): but there's a spokesperson from RCMP that claims you had been spoken to.
Schreiber: but if the RCMP had asked me, I would have asked them, "how could there ever be a settlement?" Not one word from nobody.
Mulcair (NDP): it's important to understand...
Schreiber: the RCMP lies again.
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you colleagues. Forgoing in-camera today, will happen tomorrow instead. Mr. Schreiber, *order please* as you know, Mr. Schreiber, we're moving forward w/other witnesses. You had asked for an opportunity to tell your story to Canadians. To the best of your ability, have you brought forward all the relevant docs to this cmte?
Schreiber: yes, but I can bring even more.
Szabo (chair, LPC): we'll undoubtedly have you back, Mr. Schreiber.
*Adjourned*
Return to Part VII ("This isn't 24/7 for me...I have a life, you know"), or return to the beginning of the series, Part I ("B-b-b-benoît and the Jets").
Alberta Wild Rose picture: Northernblue.ca
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