Karlheinz Schreiber returned to the Commons Ethics committee for the third time on Thursday, December 6. As with the two previous meetings (Nov 29 and Dec 4), the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
What happens in Switzerland, stays in Switzerland
11:27 AM
Lavallée (BQ): Mr. Schreiber, you just said that we need to believe the witnesses in this case and I'm having trouble believing you (*snerk*). You told me on Tuesday that the 300K paid to BM had nothing to do w/the Airbus matter, however, in the pile of docs you gave us on Tuesday, there was a letter you sent to BM on May 8, 2007 and you threaten BM to make certain disclosures and to reveal that GCI made payments to BM. First of all, that's in absolute contradiction w/what you told me on Tuesday. And I can't believe you were threatening BM--it was clear you have paid him 300K. At the end of the sentence, "I'm prepared to disclose that you received payments from GCI, Frank Moores, Fred Doucet, Gary Ouellet and that I was asked by Doucet to transfer funds to your lawyer in Geneva (Airbus)." Can you explain why you added the word "Airbus" at the end of that sentence, and in brackets?
Schreiber: The point was, I was shocked one day...I thought everything was so easy, simple and clear, you would later learn how the whole Airbus project was done, you will understand why I was somewhat confused. The situation was as follows: Frank Moores and other shareholders, who were entitled to each and every bit of money GCI received, regardless where--had travelled with each other. Only people who knew what happened in Switzerland were Frank Moores and G. Ouellet. And here comes Fred Doucet who asked me, "whether the figures you obtained from Mr. Moores are correct?" (letter disclosed on Tues). (Doucet wanted to know) whether the amount of money (that) came to the acct was accurate. You have to understand, I was not entitled to tell Doucet what's going on in GCI and told him it's better to speak to shareholders of GCI b/c I can't give answers w/o (Moores') OK. Then, he said--and now it comes to the point where I nearly froze--he said, "I want you to make sure that GCI, through you, transfers a certain amount of money to a lawyer in Geneva, Mr. Mulroney's lawyer."
Lavallée (BQ): Didn't understand...you're the one who asked that these funds be transferred?
Schreiber: Doucet asked me that, from GCI acct, money should go to a lawyer in Geneva--to Mr. Mulroney. So you don't have a feeling from me that I can easily be shocked, but why the hell would one send money to a lawyer in Geneva for Mr. Mulroney?! What for?! and now came his unbelievable answer: "For Airbus" and I hear myself say, "What the hell does Mr. Mulroney have to do with Airbus?!" and Doucet's answer was "are you naive?" and so I leave it this way and I go to Frank Moores and say, "Frank, I want to know from you, this is a deal with the European partners of Airbus and governments, what the hell is Doucet talking about?" And Frank Moores said, "Leave it with us, don't worry about it, you have nothing to do with all this." So you can imagine that I was pretty troubled b/c I had several questions about all that: #1 I told you that I try to be objective. Could it be that BM has a lawyer and bank acct in Switzerland? #2 is it ok that Mr. Doucet would tell me to send money for him there? And, Ma'am, unfortunately I've seen this thing among top leaders in politics or Prime Ministers, where people come and say something which is not true.
Szabo (chair, LPC): Mme. Lavallée, I'm giving you more time to your clock (b/c Schreiber went on & on). Mr. Schreiber, if you could be a little crisper...Mme. Lavallée, can I get you to ask each element of your question, one at a time, so that we get a clear answer for each?
11:33 AM
Lavallée (BQ): To clarify, Mr. Doucet asked you to transfer funds through BM's lawyer, to share money from Airbus?
Schreiber: make sure money from GCI...
Lavallée (BQ): and the money from GCI, where did that come from?
Schreiber: Fred Doucet asked me for the amount, b/c he didn't believe the figures he got from BM (I wonder if he meant "the figures he got from Moores," not BM??)
Lavallée (BQ): why put Airbus in brackets, in your May 8 letter?
Schreiber: b/c he (Doucet) said "Airbus," and I was in shock b/c what did BM have to do w/Airbus at that time?
Lavallée (BQ): So Doucet asked you to share the money from Airbus w/BM?
Schreiber: Yes. He said, "make sure BM gets money from GCI," which was in the acct in Switzerland.
Lavallée (BQ): to thank him for what he did in the Airbus matter?
Schreiber: I said to Doucet, "why should I tell Frank Moores that he should give me more or less an order to send money from GCI to his (BM's) lawyer?" and Doucet said, "For Airbus" and I nearly fell unconscious.
***laughter***
Schreiber: You may laugh, but I knew how the whole deal was done. I could not see why I or GCI would pay BM. And then I was told this is not my business, are you with me?
Lavallée (BQ): But you say to BM in the same letter that he had received money from GCI. Frank Moores, Doucet, and Gary Ouellet...I want to know, what money was it? We know it's not the 300K. So when? How much?
Schreiber: This was an agreement from beginning, from early 80s, if BM becomes PM, everybody gets something. And I could give you a whole list. And 'Alta Nova,' Frank Moores, later GCI would be a lobbying company...when BM is no longer PM, he will work for GCI--this is the explanation I got (in the early 80s). When Moores and Ouellet told me I should stay away from this, this is their business. I want to know how much GCI paid to BM (uhhh...you want to know?!), but this has nothing to do specifically w/this money in Switzerland, it was money based for business w/GCI...
Lavallée (BQ): you wanted to know how much GCI paid to BM? Was there any other money? Did I understand you correctly?
Schreiber: yes.
Lavallée (BQ): How much?
Schreiber: they told me I should stay away from that, that is why I called for an inquiry.
11:38 AM
Martin (NDP): You said you were surprised that Doucet mentioned BM and Airbus. Were you aware that, at the time, BM replaced 13 out of 15 board of directors of Air Canada w/his own conservative appointments, one of whom was Frank Moores (March 1985), at the same time that Moores was a senior lobbyist for Airbus, he was 'plonked' onto the board of directors for Air Canada. You were aware of this arrangement?
Schreiber: yes
Martin (NDP): In another document--we didn't quite get what we wanted for Christmas...
Schreiber: only the road map...
Martin (NDP): well, we're struggling to find our way down the road map. In your letter that you sent Oct 25 to Vic Toews, you're introducing yourself to him and asking for his consideration...
Szabo (chair, LPC): Could you give us a date etc. for the other cmte members?
Martin (NDP): 2006 (Oct 25), to the Hon. Vic Toews, Min. of Justice at the time and cc'd to Stephen Harper. (to Szabo) Is this costing me time? I hope not...
Szabo (chair, LPC): no. Read slowly, please, for the translators.
Martin (NDP): ok, Mr. Schreiber, you're introducing yourself as an upstanding international conservative. Mr. Schreiber, you write, "I don't want to drop names, but it might be that we share mutual friends. Here are some people you might want to speak to" and one is Lee Richardson and another is Peter MacKay. What about your relationship w/Peter MacKay that would lead you to believe he would sign a letter of reference for you?
Schreiber: In my mind, this is the first conservative governement in 13 years, and I thought they'd try to hold an inquiry. I waited for this! I begged for this!
Martin (NDP): did you not also hope though that when BM went to speak to PM Harper, that you might get satisfaction on your extradition?
Schreiber: but the inquiry would bring all this to light. I would have no problem with extradition if the Canadian Min. Justice would not be involved, together with the Germans, against me.
Martin (NDP): Vic Toews?
Schreiber: yes
Martin (NDP): is it possible that Vic Toews wanted you out of the country b/c there's some connection with what happened in Manitoba, with the overthrow of the NDP government (the Pawley in 1988)? Do you know a man named Derek Haniford (phonetic-sp??), who headed up the privatization commission for the Conservative party?
Schreiber: no
Martin (NDP): Have you heard of 'Prenor Trust Company' of Manitoba? (Note: I don't know what Martin's getting at here, but this Trust Co. collapsed in 1993).
Schreiber: no
Martin (NDP): are you aware that Peter MacKay has taken steps to distance himself from you, even advising his father to have nothing to do with you? Why do you think Peter MacKay would stand up for you and be a reference in this letter to Vic Toews?
Schreiber: Mr. Martin, one of your colleagues told me that when Elmer MacKay was in the House, he was terrible in opposition and he showed up "always like a priest," and everyone knew he was an honest man--that was Mark Lowell (phonetic-sp??). Now, they were not friends, now, I want to tell you, Elmer MacKay, in my opinion and I would be prepared to tell you stories about the human-being-Elmer-MacKay, but allow me not to comment on his son (*ooooh* BURN!)--he is not of the same 'timber' as his father and I don't want to comment if I can.
***laughter***
Martin (NDP): he went to lengths to distance himself from you
Schreiber: (mad, irritated) Ok, he knows he speaks about the Thyssen job in Germany and he was a student and on his own website, he said he was for a year w/Thyssen, there to get prepared for a future job w/BH Industries. Secondly, I don't know why he's doing this.
Martin (NDP): the Hon. Charlie Mayor, another Manitoba cabinet minister: did they ever come to you for help in Manitoba? A business deal?
Schreiber: no, I get to know Charlie much later, maybe 2 or 3 years ago. I had no contact with him when he was in government.
Continue to Part IV ("Party Pooper"), or return to Part II ("The Sweet Smell of Success Fees").
Photo Credit: Icanhascheeseburger.com
What happens in Switzerland, stays in Switzerland
11:27 AM
Lavallée (BQ): Mr. Schreiber, you just said that we need to believe the witnesses in this case and I'm having trouble believing you (*snerk*). You told me on Tuesday that the 300K paid to BM had nothing to do w/the Airbus matter, however, in the pile of docs you gave us on Tuesday, there was a letter you sent to BM on May 8, 2007 and you threaten BM to make certain disclosures and to reveal that GCI made payments to BM. First of all, that's in absolute contradiction w/what you told me on Tuesday. And I can't believe you were threatening BM--it was clear you have paid him 300K. At the end of the sentence, "I'm prepared to disclose that you received payments from GCI, Frank Moores, Fred Doucet, Gary Ouellet and that I was asked by Doucet to transfer funds to your lawyer in Geneva (Airbus)." Can you explain why you added the word "Airbus" at the end of that sentence, and in brackets?
Schreiber: The point was, I was shocked one day...I thought everything was so easy, simple and clear, you would later learn how the whole Airbus project was done, you will understand why I was somewhat confused. The situation was as follows: Frank Moores and other shareholders, who were entitled to each and every bit of money GCI received, regardless where--had travelled with each other. Only people who knew what happened in Switzerland were Frank Moores and G. Ouellet. And here comes Fred Doucet who asked me, "whether the figures you obtained from Mr. Moores are correct?" (letter disclosed on Tues). (Doucet wanted to know) whether the amount of money (that) came to the acct was accurate. You have to understand, I was not entitled to tell Doucet what's going on in GCI and told him it's better to speak to shareholders of GCI b/c I can't give answers w/o (Moores') OK. Then, he said--and now it comes to the point where I nearly froze--he said, "I want you to make sure that GCI, through you, transfers a certain amount of money to a lawyer in Geneva, Mr. Mulroney's lawyer."
Lavallée (BQ): Didn't understand...you're the one who asked that these funds be transferred?
Schreiber: Doucet asked me that, from GCI acct, money should go to a lawyer in Geneva--to Mr. Mulroney. So you don't have a feeling from me that I can easily be shocked, but why the hell would one send money to a lawyer in Geneva for Mr. Mulroney?! What for?! and now came his unbelievable answer: "For Airbus" and I hear myself say, "What the hell does Mr. Mulroney have to do with Airbus?!" and Doucet's answer was "are you naive?" and so I leave it this way and I go to Frank Moores and say, "Frank, I want to know from you, this is a deal with the European partners of Airbus and governments, what the hell is Doucet talking about?" And Frank Moores said, "Leave it with us, don't worry about it, you have nothing to do with all this." So you can imagine that I was pretty troubled b/c I had several questions about all that: #1 I told you that I try to be objective. Could it be that BM has a lawyer and bank acct in Switzerland? #2 is it ok that Mr. Doucet would tell me to send money for him there? And, Ma'am, unfortunately I've seen this thing among top leaders in politics or Prime Ministers, where people come and say something which is not true.
Szabo (chair, LPC): Mme. Lavallée, I'm giving you more time to your clock (b/c Schreiber went on & on). Mr. Schreiber, if you could be a little crisper...Mme. Lavallée, can I get you to ask each element of your question, one at a time, so that we get a clear answer for each?
11:33 AM
Lavallée (BQ): To clarify, Mr. Doucet asked you to transfer funds through BM's lawyer, to share money from Airbus?
Schreiber: make sure money from GCI...
Lavallée (BQ): and the money from GCI, where did that come from?
Schreiber: Fred Doucet asked me for the amount, b/c he didn't believe the figures he got from BM (I wonder if he meant "the figures he got from Moores," not BM??)
Lavallée (BQ): why put Airbus in brackets, in your May 8 letter?
Schreiber: b/c he (Doucet) said "Airbus," and I was in shock b/c what did BM have to do w/Airbus at that time?
Lavallée (BQ): So Doucet asked you to share the money from Airbus w/BM?
Schreiber: Yes. He said, "make sure BM gets money from GCI," which was in the acct in Switzerland.
Lavallée (BQ): to thank him for what he did in the Airbus matter?
Schreiber: I said to Doucet, "why should I tell Frank Moores that he should give me more or less an order to send money from GCI to his (BM's) lawyer?" and Doucet said, "For Airbus" and I nearly fell unconscious.
***laughter***
Schreiber: You may laugh, but I knew how the whole deal was done. I could not see why I or GCI would pay BM. And then I was told this is not my business, are you with me?
Lavallée (BQ): But you say to BM in the same letter that he had received money from GCI. Frank Moores, Doucet, and Gary Ouellet...I want to know, what money was it? We know it's not the 300K. So when? How much?
Schreiber: This was an agreement from beginning, from early 80s, if BM becomes PM, everybody gets something. And I could give you a whole list. And 'Alta Nova,' Frank Moores, later GCI would be a lobbying company...when BM is no longer PM, he will work for GCI--this is the explanation I got (in the early 80s). When Moores and Ouellet told me I should stay away from this, this is their business. I want to know how much GCI paid to BM (uhhh...you want to know?!), but this has nothing to do specifically w/this money in Switzerland, it was money based for business w/GCI...
Lavallée (BQ): you wanted to know how much GCI paid to BM? Was there any other money? Did I understand you correctly?
Schreiber: yes.
Lavallée (BQ): How much?
Schreiber: they told me I should stay away from that, that is why I called for an inquiry.
11:38 AM
Martin (NDP): You said you were surprised that Doucet mentioned BM and Airbus. Were you aware that, at the time, BM replaced 13 out of 15 board of directors of Air Canada w/his own conservative appointments, one of whom was Frank Moores (March 1985), at the same time that Moores was a senior lobbyist for Airbus, he was 'plonked' onto the board of directors for Air Canada. You were aware of this arrangement?
Schreiber: yes
Martin (NDP): In another document--we didn't quite get what we wanted for Christmas...
Schreiber: only the road map...
Martin (NDP): well, we're struggling to find our way down the road map. In your letter that you sent Oct 25 to Vic Toews, you're introducing yourself to him and asking for his consideration...
Szabo (chair, LPC): Could you give us a date etc. for the other cmte members?
Martin (NDP): 2006 (Oct 25), to the Hon. Vic Toews, Min. of Justice at the time and cc'd to Stephen Harper. (to Szabo) Is this costing me time? I hope not...
Szabo (chair, LPC): no. Read slowly, please, for the translators.
Martin (NDP): ok, Mr. Schreiber, you're introducing yourself as an upstanding international conservative. Mr. Schreiber, you write, "I don't want to drop names, but it might be that we share mutual friends. Here are some people you might want to speak to" and one is Lee Richardson and another is Peter MacKay. What about your relationship w/Peter MacKay that would lead you to believe he would sign a letter of reference for you?
Schreiber: In my mind, this is the first conservative governement in 13 years, and I thought they'd try to hold an inquiry. I waited for this! I begged for this!
Martin (NDP): did you not also hope though that when BM went to speak to PM Harper, that you might get satisfaction on your extradition?
Schreiber: but the inquiry would bring all this to light. I would have no problem with extradition if the Canadian Min. Justice would not be involved, together with the Germans, against me.
Martin (NDP): Vic Toews?
Schreiber: yes
Martin (NDP): is it possible that Vic Toews wanted you out of the country b/c there's some connection with what happened in Manitoba, with the overthrow of the NDP government (the Pawley in 1988)? Do you know a man named Derek Haniford (phonetic-sp??), who headed up the privatization commission for the Conservative party?
Schreiber: no
Martin (NDP): Have you heard of 'Prenor Trust Company' of Manitoba? (Note: I don't know what Martin's getting at here, but this Trust Co. collapsed in 1993).
Schreiber: no
Martin (NDP): are you aware that Peter MacKay has taken steps to distance himself from you, even advising his father to have nothing to do with you? Why do you think Peter MacKay would stand up for you and be a reference in this letter to Vic Toews?
Schreiber: Mr. Martin, one of your colleagues told me that when Elmer MacKay was in the House, he was terrible in opposition and he showed up "always like a priest," and everyone knew he was an honest man--that was Mark Lowell (phonetic-sp??). Now, they were not friends, now, I want to tell you, Elmer MacKay, in my opinion and I would be prepared to tell you stories about the human-being-Elmer-MacKay, but allow me not to comment on his son (*ooooh* BURN!)--he is not of the same 'timber' as his father and I don't want to comment if I can.
***laughter***
Martin (NDP): he went to lengths to distance himself from you
Schreiber: (mad, irritated) Ok, he knows he speaks about the Thyssen job in Germany and he was a student and on his own website, he said he was for a year w/Thyssen, there to get prepared for a future job w/BH Industries. Secondly, I don't know why he's doing this.
Martin (NDP): the Hon. Charlie Mayor, another Manitoba cabinet minister: did they ever come to you for help in Manitoba? A business deal?
Schreiber: no, I get to know Charlie much later, maybe 2 or 3 years ago. I had no contact with him when he was in government.
Continue to Part IV ("Party Pooper"), or return to Part II ("The Sweet Smell of Success Fees").
Photo Credit: Icanhascheeseburger.com
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