The Right Honourable Brian Mulroney (or "BM," as I've come to know him) presented himself to the Commons Ethics committee for an exhausting 3 1/2 hours on Thursday. As with the Schreiber testimony (Nov 29, Dec 4, Dec 6, and Dec 11) the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
Winnipeg in January? Now, that's downright nutty!
10:23 AM
Martin (NDP): Mr. Mulroney, when people use cash in business deals of that size, they're either trying to hide any record of something they know to be wrong or they're trying to avoid paying taxes. That's the way most Canadians see it, and neither look very good, frankly, for a former PM, let me simply say. You're saying that you would have us believe that you made these deals so that you could promote world peace by selling "peacekeeping" vehicles to other countries. (*snerk*) Did you also try to sell pasta making machines to the president of Italy while you were touring the world? One of your spokespeople said that one of your things was to promote pasta making machines--one of the early incarnations of what this money was really for.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (annoyed, eyebrows are way up on his forehead) Well, Mr. Martin, that was Mr. Schreiber who said that, under oath...
Martin (NDP): ...it was Luc Lavoie...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (interrupting) No, Sir, it was Mr. Schreiber, under oath...in the Eurocopter case, down the Street, in 2004.
Martin (NDP): you said...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (interrupting) Excuse me sir...
***Martin & BM interrupting each other, so Szabo calls for Order***
Szabo (chair, LPC): the translators have difficulty when two people talk at the same time; should the answer take substantial time, I will not penalize the member. Mr. Martin, pose your question & allow him to answer...
Martin (NDP): (starts to speak, but he's interrupted again by BM--Martin throws his hands up in frustration)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Excuse me, sir! Excuse me: he posed a question ...
Szabo (chair, LPC): I just want Mr. Martin to repeat the question...
Martin (NDP): the question I have--you said that the money you got in NY, you put it into a safety deposit box. Do you have any access ...
Szabo (chair, LPC): (clearly getting irritated w/Martin) Order! Order please...that's not the question you just asked Mr. Mulroney, that I wanted you to repeat. I want BM to respond to your previous question, where the pasta reference was made...I won't dock your time for this, Mr. Martin, but I want to be fair to the witness.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Mr. Martin suggested that this had something to do w/pasta machines, and that I was out promoting "world peace." Now, I would hope that something like this (peace?) would result, but that wasn't my objective. The objective, as quoted, by KHS, in the case of R v. MBB helicopter in 2004, here's the mandate...
****interruption****
Szabo (chair, LPC): (to Martin) Don't worry, I'm stopping the clock on this question, you won't be docked for this...
Tilson (vice-chair, CPC): Point of order! I don't understand all this stopping of the clock business. I mean, Mr. Martin asks the question, the witness is entitled to answer...all this stopping of the clock, is uh...nutty...(CPC toadie, probably Del Mastro, pipes up: "It's ridiculous!"). Martin asks, witness answers and it has nothing to do w/stopping the clock...
10:27 AM
Szabo (chair, LPC): Ok, on the same point of order, Mr. Murphy?
Murphy (LPC): yes, Mr. Chairman, I agree wholeheartedly w/Mr. Tilson. You're very magnanimous w/other members' time. And maybe Mr. Mulroney should make his answers succinct and w/in the brief time frames of the questioner.
Szabo (chair, LPC): Thank you, colleagues, I want to be equitable w/all members. When there's a disagreement, I've been stopping the clock, but I'm not going to be doing this anymore, but in the event that the answer is exceptionally long, I'm going to provide additional time for the members.
***Tilson grumbling something unintelligible in the corner***
Szabo (chair, LPC): Well, thank you (yeah, F-you, too, Tilson), I'm going back to Mr. Martin. You have 7 min left.
Martin (NDP): (interrupted by BM again)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Mr. Chairman, I was asked about the mandate. And I'm telling you, that this (document) goes to the core of the entire issue. The mandate was given under oath by Mr. Schreiber in the Eurocopter case in 2004. Here's what he said, "I have many things in mind, and I told you, I wanted to hire Mr. Mulroney for Thyssen, and he would be hired for the same thing he's doing now, and it would be nice to have a former Canadian PM on a peacekeeping track for Thyssen products, again, as the German gov wanted Thyssen to do. I was also involved in the pasta business, enriched Durham semolina products, with Archer Daniels Midland, and he provided me w/material." I was a Sr. Director of ADM. It's not some snarky comment about "pasta machines saving the peace of the world," it's an entirely legit business proposal that he proposed and I accepted. The only dubious part of it, as Mr. Menard suggested, is that I ought not have accepted the payment in cash. (looking very red in the face)
Martin (NDP): you said that you took money you had in NY in a safety deposit box--do you have a safety deposit box in Switzerland?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Martin (NDP): you sued the gov Canada for $50 mill for saying you took money from KHS and you took a 2.1 mill settlement. Now, I believe you took money from KHS and that, if the gov of Canada knew you took money from KHS, you would not have received that settlement, and they would have fought that court battle to its legitimate end. Are you willing to give back that 2.1 million to the people of Canada? Now that we know you took money from Schreiber?
***laughter***
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (looking wounded) No, I took money for work done on his behalf around the world. I was paid to execute this mandate, that he read out in court...
Martin (NDP): then why did you deny having any dealings w/the man...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: that's completely false
Martin (NDP): by omission, you lead us to believe you had virtually no...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (hopping mad) I explained that in the province of Quebec...
Martin (NDP): you're splitting hairs...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (mad) I am NOT splitting hairs...
Martin (NDP): you're splitting hairs and the country isn't buying it...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (leaning back, red-faced but smiling...)
Szabo (chair, LPC): order! Answer, then another question!
Martin (NDP): I'm not calling you a liar, Mr. Mulroney, but I don't want anybody here to think I believe you...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (laughing) Mr. Martin...
Martin (NDP): one of the most disturbing allegations, if I can continue, is that KHS and Franz Josef Strauss interfered w/Canadian politics w/foreign money in 1983, in Winnipeg, to unseat Joe Clark who may have been the next PM of Canada, if foreign money had not intervened by this neoconservative government of Germany, who by Schreiber's testimony, was going around the world trying to promote neoconservative governments. Were you aware at that time that Walter Wolf and Franz Josef Strauss and KHS were parachuting delegates in, by charter plane to unseat Joe Clark's leadership and to place you, and F Moores in the next prime minister of Canada?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (smiling wryly) Mr. Chairman, the idea that someone would charter two Boeings loaded w/450 delegates to fly them into Winnipeg in the middle of a snowstorm in January 1983, without anybody knowing about it, it's pretty exceptional at a conservative meeting (So they were Airbus, not Boeings? *snerk*). But you quote Mr. Schreiber approvingly...but he was asked, under oath, what role he played in (my leadership). Mr. Bernstein asked, "who did you think this donation was in favour of," and he responded, "I believe this was in favour of Mr. Mulroney" in 1976. "Just to be clear, was this the leadership that resulted in Mr. Clark's election?" "Yes, Yes," (KHS responded). "Did you support Mr. M's leadership bid, the 2nd one, the one he ultimately won?" "No."
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (Mulroney looks downright gleeful and points at Pat Martin) So, no, he had nothing to do with my winning the leadership, and you sir--and I say this respectfully (*snerk*)--I hope before we leave that you'll find it in your heart to (rescind your earlier stmt) b/c it's repudiated by "your friend" Mr. Schreiber, right here.
***huge laughter***
Martin (NDP): (shaking his head, emphatically, "no") Mr. Schreiber is no friend of mine.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I withdraw that, if you make your own withdrawal.
Martin (NDP): let's see how the day goes. Now, Mr. Mulroney, you said you had absolutely nothing to do w/the Air Canada purchase of Airbus. During the 2 year period of time leading up to the Airbus purchase, you replaced 13 of the 15 Board of Directors of AC, including appointing Frank Moores to the BOD of Air Canada, your long-term associate, he was also the principal lobbyist working on behalf of Airbus. Now, did you know that he was lobbying at the time you appointed him to the Air Canada BOD?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: what we found out, first, Mr. Moores was appointed as part of a group...
Martin (NDP): 13 out of 15...I assume the two who weren't changed were already conservatives
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: you know what, you might be right. I have no idea. I do know that Moores was the former Premier of Newfoundland, a former member of this House, a former member of the Transport cmte, and he was appointed b/c he was the Newfoundland representative on the board. These were the recommendations of the Min Transport to our cabinet, and we acted on them. Mr. Moores was appointed for a few months and then he withdrew and retired, not b/c of Airbus, but b/c he had an economic association w/Wardair. And so, he had to resign of his own volition...so, sir (***Martin interrupting***)
Martin (NDP): let me ask you about your blind trusts. A lot of public office holders have them. Let me ask you, did you have any shares in GCI or any subsidiary in a blind trust while you were PM or in parliament?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: of course not.
Coming up next: Part VI ("A perfectly legitimate businessman"), or return to Part IV ("It was all very sophisticated")
Winnipeg in January? Now, that's downright nutty!
10:23 AM
Martin (NDP): Mr. Mulroney, when people use cash in business deals of that size, they're either trying to hide any record of something they know to be wrong or they're trying to avoid paying taxes. That's the way most Canadians see it, and neither look very good, frankly, for a former PM, let me simply say. You're saying that you would have us believe that you made these deals so that you could promote world peace by selling "peacekeeping" vehicles to other countries. (*snerk*) Did you also try to sell pasta making machines to the president of Italy while you were touring the world? One of your spokespeople said that one of your things was to promote pasta making machines--one of the early incarnations of what this money was really for.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (annoyed, eyebrows are way up on his forehead) Well, Mr. Martin, that was Mr. Schreiber who said that, under oath...
Martin (NDP): ...it was Luc Lavoie...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (interrupting) No, Sir, it was Mr. Schreiber, under oath...in the Eurocopter case, down the Street, in 2004.
Martin (NDP): you said...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (interrupting) Excuse me sir...
***Martin & BM interrupting each other, so Szabo calls for Order***
Szabo (chair, LPC): the translators have difficulty when two people talk at the same time; should the answer take substantial time, I will not penalize the member. Mr. Martin, pose your question & allow him to answer...
Martin (NDP): (starts to speak, but he's interrupted again by BM--Martin throws his hands up in frustration)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Excuse me, sir! Excuse me: he posed a question ...
Szabo (chair, LPC): I just want Mr. Martin to repeat the question...
Martin (NDP): the question I have--you said that the money you got in NY, you put it into a safety deposit box. Do you have any access ...
Szabo (chair, LPC): (clearly getting irritated w/Martin) Order! Order please...that's not the question you just asked Mr. Mulroney, that I wanted you to repeat. I want BM to respond to your previous question, where the pasta reference was made...I won't dock your time for this, Mr. Martin, but I want to be fair to the witness.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Mr. Martin suggested that this had something to do w/pasta machines, and that I was out promoting "world peace." Now, I would hope that something like this (peace?) would result, but that wasn't my objective. The objective, as quoted, by KHS, in the case of R v. MBB helicopter in 2004, here's the mandate...
****interruption****
Szabo (chair, LPC): (to Martin) Don't worry, I'm stopping the clock on this question, you won't be docked for this...
Tilson (vice-chair, CPC): Point of order! I don't understand all this stopping of the clock business. I mean, Mr. Martin asks the question, the witness is entitled to answer...all this stopping of the clock, is uh...nutty...(CPC toadie, probably Del Mastro, pipes up: "It's ridiculous!"). Martin asks, witness answers and it has nothing to do w/stopping the clock...
10:27 AM
Szabo (chair, LPC): Ok, on the same point of order, Mr. Murphy?
Murphy (LPC): yes, Mr. Chairman, I agree wholeheartedly w/Mr. Tilson. You're very magnanimous w/other members' time. And maybe Mr. Mulroney should make his answers succinct and w/in the brief time frames of the questioner.
Szabo (chair, LPC): Thank you, colleagues, I want to be equitable w/all members. When there's a disagreement, I've been stopping the clock, but I'm not going to be doing this anymore, but in the event that the answer is exceptionally long, I'm going to provide additional time for the members.
***Tilson grumbling something unintelligible in the corner***
Szabo (chair, LPC): Well, thank you (yeah, F-you, too, Tilson), I'm going back to Mr. Martin. You have 7 min left.
Martin (NDP): (interrupted by BM again)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Mr. Chairman, I was asked about the mandate. And I'm telling you, that this (document) goes to the core of the entire issue. The mandate was given under oath by Mr. Schreiber in the Eurocopter case in 2004. Here's what he said, "I have many things in mind, and I told you, I wanted to hire Mr. Mulroney for Thyssen, and he would be hired for the same thing he's doing now, and it would be nice to have a former Canadian PM on a peacekeeping track for Thyssen products, again, as the German gov wanted Thyssen to do. I was also involved in the pasta business, enriched Durham semolina products, with Archer Daniels Midland, and he provided me w/material." I was a Sr. Director of ADM. It's not some snarky comment about "pasta machines saving the peace of the world," it's an entirely legit business proposal that he proposed and I accepted. The only dubious part of it, as Mr. Menard suggested, is that I ought not have accepted the payment in cash. (looking very red in the face)
Martin (NDP): you said that you took money you had in NY in a safety deposit box--do you have a safety deposit box in Switzerland?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Martin (NDP): you sued the gov Canada for $50 mill for saying you took money from KHS and you took a 2.1 mill settlement. Now, I believe you took money from KHS and that, if the gov of Canada knew you took money from KHS, you would not have received that settlement, and they would have fought that court battle to its legitimate end. Are you willing to give back that 2.1 million to the people of Canada? Now that we know you took money from Schreiber?
***laughter***
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (looking wounded) No, I took money for work done on his behalf around the world. I was paid to execute this mandate, that he read out in court...
Martin (NDP): then why did you deny having any dealings w/the man...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: that's completely false
Martin (NDP): by omission, you lead us to believe you had virtually no...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (hopping mad) I explained that in the province of Quebec...
Martin (NDP): you're splitting hairs...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (mad) I am NOT splitting hairs...
Martin (NDP): you're splitting hairs and the country isn't buying it...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (leaning back, red-faced but smiling...)
Szabo (chair, LPC): order! Answer, then another question!
Martin (NDP): I'm not calling you a liar, Mr. Mulroney, but I don't want anybody here to think I believe you...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (laughing) Mr. Martin...
Martin (NDP): one of the most disturbing allegations, if I can continue, is that KHS and Franz Josef Strauss interfered w/Canadian politics w/foreign money in 1983, in Winnipeg, to unseat Joe Clark who may have been the next PM of Canada, if foreign money had not intervened by this neoconservative government of Germany, who by Schreiber's testimony, was going around the world trying to promote neoconservative governments. Were you aware at that time that Walter Wolf and Franz Josef Strauss and KHS were parachuting delegates in, by charter plane to unseat Joe Clark's leadership and to place you, and F Moores in the next prime minister of Canada?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (smiling wryly) Mr. Chairman, the idea that someone would charter two Boeings loaded w/450 delegates to fly them into Winnipeg in the middle of a snowstorm in January 1983, without anybody knowing about it, it's pretty exceptional at a conservative meeting (So they were Airbus, not Boeings? *snerk*). But you quote Mr. Schreiber approvingly...but he was asked, under oath, what role he played in (my leadership). Mr. Bernstein asked, "who did you think this donation was in favour of," and he responded, "I believe this was in favour of Mr. Mulroney" in 1976. "Just to be clear, was this the leadership that resulted in Mr. Clark's election?" "Yes, Yes," (KHS responded). "Did you support Mr. M's leadership bid, the 2nd one, the one he ultimately won?" "No."
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (Mulroney looks downright gleeful and points at Pat Martin) So, no, he had nothing to do with my winning the leadership, and you sir--and I say this respectfully (*snerk*)--I hope before we leave that you'll find it in your heart to (rescind your earlier stmt) b/c it's repudiated by "your friend" Mr. Schreiber, right here.
***huge laughter***
Martin (NDP): (shaking his head, emphatically, "no") Mr. Schreiber is no friend of mine.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I withdraw that, if you make your own withdrawal.
Martin (NDP): let's see how the day goes. Now, Mr. Mulroney, you said you had absolutely nothing to do w/the Air Canada purchase of Airbus. During the 2 year period of time leading up to the Airbus purchase, you replaced 13 of the 15 Board of Directors of AC, including appointing Frank Moores to the BOD of Air Canada, your long-term associate, he was also the principal lobbyist working on behalf of Airbus. Now, did you know that he was lobbying at the time you appointed him to the Air Canada BOD?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: what we found out, first, Mr. Moores was appointed as part of a group...
Martin (NDP): 13 out of 15...I assume the two who weren't changed were already conservatives
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: you know what, you might be right. I have no idea. I do know that Moores was the former Premier of Newfoundland, a former member of this House, a former member of the Transport cmte, and he was appointed b/c he was the Newfoundland representative on the board. These were the recommendations of the Min Transport to our cabinet, and we acted on them. Mr. Moores was appointed for a few months and then he withdrew and retired, not b/c of Airbus, but b/c he had an economic association w/Wardair. And so, he had to resign of his own volition...so, sir (***Martin interrupting***)
Martin (NDP): let me ask you about your blind trusts. A lot of public office holders have them. Let me ask you, did you have any shares in GCI or any subsidiary in a blind trust while you were PM or in parliament?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: of course not.
Coming up next: Part VI ("A perfectly legitimate businessman"), or return to Part IV ("It was all very sophisticated")
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