The Right Honourable Brian Mulroney (or "BM," as I've come to know him) presented himself to the Commons Ethics committee for an exhausting 3 1/2 hours on Thursday. As with the Schreiber testimony (Nov 29, Dec 4, Dec 6, and Dec 11) the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
Comartin brings it!
11:54 AM
Del Mastro (CPC): you've stated a number of times here, today, that Mr. Schreiber would do or say anything to avoid extradition. His lawyer, Greenspan, has said as much. He testified to us that he would sign any letter that might help him avoid extradition (i.e. the July 20, 2006 letter ostensibly dictated to Schreiber by Elmer MacKay). The problem is, he's the only person who's been talking. You haven't said anything to defend yourself. And I think Canadians have wanted to hear from you. Why haven't they?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Because it was a private matter, undertaken in the private sector. Obviously, in retrospect, I made an unwise decision, but I also made an unwise decision in defense of this. For a number of people, like Mr. Thibault, asked about the BRITAIN account. Mr. Schreiber said how the deal was done at Harrington Lake and he scurried off to Europe and created this BRITAIN acct--he wasn't sure if it was for 300K or 500K--but this BRITAIN acct was created for me. I think that Mr. Thibault interrogated him very closely on this. Very thoroughly. Mr. Schreiber sat here and swore under oath that, yes, indeed, Mr. Thibault, the BRITAIN acct was for BM. He neglected to tell you that on Oct 20, 1999, he instructed Greenspan to write to the CBC and say (link added):
(***N.B. Mulroney's lawyer also sent a letter to the CBC, very similar to that which was sent by Greenspan!)
Del Mastro (CPC): I agree w/you, but I just think that, if that statement had been made in 1999, that would have been a powerful stmt. Mr. Schreiber...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Excuse me! This stmt that Mr. Greenspan sent to the 5th Estate? They never referred to it! They just continued their implication that "Britain" equals "Brian," just to continue their enabling role, to be a Get out of Jail card for Mr. Schreiber.
Del Mastro (CPC): Mr. Schreiber's lawsuit against you...there's been speculation, including today, that money was for services already provided by you (bribes)...I told Mr. Schreiber, obviously you wouldn't sue BM if they were bribes or kickbacks. And he agreed, that that's not why he was suing you. So I'm asking you: why do you think Mr. Schreiber is suing you? It seems to me that he has no receipts, no contracts, his allegations are all of meetings, one-on-one, it seems to me he'll have an uphill battle trying to prove any of this. Why is he doing this?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I think it was part & parcel of a strategy to dupe members of this cmte and two important media institutions in his ultimate objective to avoid extradition to Germany. Your question is NB: what did he do for the money? Why did he sue me 14 years later? 14 years! Let me tell you, just briefly, what he was saying just 3 yrs ago. He sued me as part of a strategy to excite interest in Canada, to include Mr. Harper in allegations--who had nothing to do with anything--I mean, what better way than to accuse a PM and former PM of impropriety to get a feeding frenzy going? Listen to this--it's an unsolicited letter from Mr. Schreiber July 22, 2004:
Del Mastro (CPC): Mr. Mulroney, of the evidence that Mr. Schreiber presented, the most troubling document is a letter dated May 8, 2007, a letter that makes very significant accusations. Did you receive that letter? If so, did you respond?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (initially confused, but clues in) OH! The "Blackmail Letter," no, no I did not (respond to it).
Szabo (chair, LPC): to clarify, you made reference to Mr. Schreiber's deportation?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I'm sorry.
12:05 PM
Comartin (NDP): the 1000 dollar bills, were these US or CAD?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: CAD
Comartin (NDP): even the 1000 dollar bills in NY?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Comartin (NDP): the 1000 dollar bills in NY--that money never came to Canada? It stayed in the states?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (stayed in the states)
Comartin (NDP): did you declare that money as income? Did you pay taxes in the US?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I declared it in Canada and paid all taxes in Canada b/c I'm a Canadian citizen, pursuant to our...
Comartin (NDP): when did you declare that income?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: after Mr. Schreiber was arrested. In 1999. (Ooops!)
Comartin (NDP): in a single year? Or over a two year period?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: my advisers figured out what cheques to sign and I did that sir.
Comartin (NDP): from 1993 to 1999, or 2000, I assume you had your own accounting firm that did your tax returns? Who were they?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Yes. (inaudible name)
Comartin (NDP): you said that when this money was received, it wasn't taxable yet b/c you hadn't prepared an invoice for Mr. Schreiber yet?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no. Because at the time, what I'd used at the time was expenses and expenses are not taxable until the matter is resolved and the bill was sent.
Comartin (NDP): Mr. Mulroney, you practised law for a long time before you became PM, but you were treating this as not revenue coming into you as a practising lawyer?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: it was completely separate from my law firm
Comartin (NDP): how would you categorize...were you a consultant?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes.
Comartin (NDP): you didn't see yourself as an employee of Thyssen?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I was an international consultant.
Comartin (NDP): just in terms of employment, when you received the 1st 100K, or 75K, you were still a MP, is that correct?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I think that's probably right, sir.
Comartin (NDP): the record shows that you received that 1st payment in August, but again, you didn't view yourself as an employee. You saw yourself as a consultant. Were you registered as a lobbyist, either under Fed legislation or any other legislation in this country at that time?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir, I've never lobbied any government.
Comartin (NDP): and you took the position that the work you did with respect to the military vehicles was all done internationally?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Comartin (NDP): you had an exchange w/Pat Martin earlier--did you feel that you were also being retained to work on obtaining contracts or business w/Mr. Schreiber about pasta?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: He (KHS) says that. I didn't say that.
Comartin (NDP): I know he says that, but I want to know, was the retainer only for the military vehicles or...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: he was in error. I believe that the pasta matters to which he refers (writing to me about Bill Gates etc.) came later. In his testimony, he says he hired me for two reasons: the Thyssen work and the anti-obesity pasta business that he proposed to develop.
Comartin (NDP): the meeting at Harrington Lake on June 23, while you were still PM. Did the business of pasta machines arise at any time during that meeting? It was only about the military vehicles?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (annoyed) No, Sir! It was about nothing! There was no conversation or undertaking of any kind regarding my employment. Bear Head was mentioned, and my only comment was my regret that it didn't come about. I was in favour of it, Mr. Comartin. It would have been a great job creator in Nova Scotia.
Comartin (NDP): when did you feel you were first retained with respect to military vehicles?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I believe the end of August (1993)
Comartin (NDP): at the time you received your 1st payment?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes, although Mr. Schreiber testifies that it was late 93 or early 94 (Note: I think he means that Schreiber testified it was late 92 or early 93, actually)
Comartin (NDP): he also testified that he gave you the money in Aug 1993...Ok, but at the time that you received the money in the hotel room, and he gave you the envelope, was there any discussion at that time about what the 75K was for?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: of course!
Comartin (NDP): so just the military vehicles or the pasta bus as well?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, just the military vehicles.
Comartin (NDP): and you were still a MP at this time?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes, I was, sir.
Comartin (NDP): with regard to how these funds were handled...not clear on the money in NY. You declared it here and paid full taxes here, w/no expenses for flying around the world. What happened to that money? Literally we have 75K sitting in a safe deposit box in NY. What happened to it?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: it stayed there until I settled everything w/Revenue Canada and Quebec.
Comartin (NDP): you told us that already. What happened to it?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: a-a-a-after that period, I integrated those funds over a period of time into my own requirements in the USA.
Comartin (NDP): so you never ran afoul of the rule about transferring amounts >$10 000 over international boundaries?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no
Comartin (NDP): you say you integrated it into your businesses in...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: cash flow.
Comartin (NDP): but you never declared it in the US...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: but I didn't have to, under the tax agreement we have w/the US, I declared my world wide income as we all must and I paid full taxes on it.
Comartin (NDP): you said you didn't have to declare it when received but only when you sent a bill. Did you ever send Mr. Schreiber a bill?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I never sent Mr. Schreiber a bill in that sense.
Comartin (NDP): why not?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Because he told you, in his testimony, he said, "I viewed Mr. Mulroney's initiative..."
Comartin (NDP): so we're supposed to believe him now?
***laughter***
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, no...not at all. You were asking me, it was his money, and ...
Comartin (NDP): no, I'm asking you what you did with it. Mr. Mulroney, I've been practising law for a long time, and it's really difficult---I mean, for every business, professional, consultant etc that I've ever acted for, they take money in, take the deductions off, and they do it all in the year that they're in...you didn't do that sir.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I didn't sir, but you're right, that's what's normally done.
Comartin (NDP): And I would suggest that you didn't declare those expenses b/c you didn't keep records and you couldn't show the income tax people...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (snarky, angry) Well, you can suggest whatever you want, Mr. Comartin, it doesn't matter, b/c I didn't claim any expenses--I paid it all as income, to the tax authorities of Canada. I'm sorry sir, but if you wish to impugn my character or integrity, that's ok (sarcastically)
Comartin (NDP): (interrupting) are you able to produce records to show that specifically that 40K/yr expenses?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, no, not 40K/yr, 40K in total
Comartin (NDP): you have expense sheets? E.g. "I flew to Russia to see Mr. Yeltsin, I flew to France to see Mr. Mitterand, I apportioned $1000 for this flight, these hotels, these restaurants?"
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I had all of them, until such time as I paid taxes on that. (and then he got rid of them--Ooopsie!)
Coming up next: Part X ("Never ask a man 'how big' it was"), or return to Part VIII ("You've been very generous with your taxes")
Comartin brings it!
11:54 AM
Del Mastro (CPC): you've stated a number of times here, today, that Mr. Schreiber would do or say anything to avoid extradition. His lawyer, Greenspan, has said as much. He testified to us that he would sign any letter that might help him avoid extradition (i.e. the July 20, 2006 letter ostensibly dictated to Schreiber by Elmer MacKay). The problem is, he's the only person who's been talking. You haven't said anything to defend yourself. And I think Canadians have wanted to hear from you. Why haven't they?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Because it was a private matter, undertaken in the private sector. Obviously, in retrospect, I made an unwise decision, but I also made an unwise decision in defense of this. For a number of people, like Mr. Thibault, asked about the BRITAIN account. Mr. Schreiber said how the deal was done at Harrington Lake and he scurried off to Europe and created this BRITAIN acct--he wasn't sure if it was for 300K or 500K--but this BRITAIN acct was created for me. I think that Mr. Thibault interrogated him very closely on this. Very thoroughly. Mr. Schreiber sat here and swore under oath that, yes, indeed, Mr. Thibault, the BRITAIN acct was for BM. He neglected to tell you that on Oct 20, 1999, he instructed Greenspan to write to the CBC and say (link added):
Before I wrote this letter this morning, I read Philip Mathias' article in the National Post wherein he states the show, the fifth estate is expected to report that the word BRITAIN appears in banking docs belonging to Mr. Schreiber. He stated to Mr. Schreiber that BRITAIN is close to 'Brian,' in order to imply a connection between Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Schreiber. If Mr. Mathias is correct in what he expects, and he expects you to report and run on your show tonight, without the benefit of my on-air questions and answers, you will have committed grave wrongs against Mr. Mulroney and Mr. Schreiber. That would be a false, inaccurate, malicious, groundless inference. There is no resemblance to the truth in that reckless suggestion. Your conduct will attempt to ruin the reputation of people by innuendo and falsehoods, when I can give you an accurate, truthful, meaningful and balanced response to your irresponsible innuendo.Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Well, so much for the BRITAIN acct! This letter was signed by Edward Greenspan, QC, an excellent lawyer in T.O. who represents Mr. Schreiber's interests. If, you have ever seen a repudiation more total & complete, I'd like to examine it.
(***N.B. Mulroney's lawyer also sent a letter to the CBC, very similar to that which was sent by Greenspan!)
Del Mastro (CPC): I agree w/you, but I just think that, if that statement had been made in 1999, that would have been a powerful stmt. Mr. Schreiber...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Excuse me! This stmt that Mr. Greenspan sent to the 5th Estate? They never referred to it! They just continued their implication that "Britain" equals "Brian," just to continue their enabling role, to be a Get out of Jail card for Mr. Schreiber.
Del Mastro (CPC): Mr. Schreiber's lawsuit against you...there's been speculation, including today, that money was for services already provided by you (bribes)...I told Mr. Schreiber, obviously you wouldn't sue BM if they were bribes or kickbacks. And he agreed, that that's not why he was suing you. So I'm asking you: why do you think Mr. Schreiber is suing you? It seems to me that he has no receipts, no contracts, his allegations are all of meetings, one-on-one, it seems to me he'll have an uphill battle trying to prove any of this. Why is he doing this?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I think it was part & parcel of a strategy to dupe members of this cmte and two important media institutions in his ultimate objective to avoid extradition to Germany. Your question is NB: what did he do for the money? Why did he sue me 14 years later? 14 years! Let me tell you, just briefly, what he was saying just 3 yrs ago. He sued me as part of a strategy to excite interest in Canada, to include Mr. Harper in allegations--who had nothing to do with anything--I mean, what better way than to accuse a PM and former PM of impropriety to get a feeding frenzy going? Listen to this--it's an unsolicited letter from Mr. Schreiber July 22, 2004:
Dear Brian, friends from around the world call and told me they never understood better than now why I like the man BM even more than PM BM. It's the quality of the human being that counts most in life. Your performance at Pres Ronald Reagan's funeral--I say au revoir today to a gifted leader, an historic President, a gracious human being--has put you at the top of admiration and respect around the world.Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: ...and then, low and behold, another letter from Mr. Schreiber, July 2004 (link and emphasis added):
Dear Brian, Now he's got power. Is Brian Mulroney Canada's greatest deal broker ever? I say: Yes. And I saw it already coming when I met you at Harrington Lake. Since the Reagan funeral, in my opinion, your personal power increased even more, and so do your personal obligations to the world. Fate plays an important role in the life of human beings. We know this. Nobody can escape fate. Fate has put you, in my opinion, in a position where you are able to help the human beings, especially the children of North America and around the world in a dramatic way and your skill may put you in a special historical place and you will win the Nobel Peace Prize. Dear Brian, with your help, and the support of Mr. Bill Gates and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, we should be able to fight the obesity epidemic in the USA (relating to the pasta machine, Spaghetissimo); I am convinced the project will impress you and find your interest to help the children.Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: This is 2004! And he thinks I'm the greatest guy in the world! He knows I know Bill Gates, and he wants me to help in this regard. I admit, this is not a universally held opinion, but it's interesting that it's his!
Del Mastro (CPC): Mr. Mulroney, of the evidence that Mr. Schreiber presented, the most troubling document is a letter dated May 8, 2007, a letter that makes very significant accusations. Did you receive that letter? If so, did you respond?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (initially confused, but clues in) OH! The "Blackmail Letter," no, no I did not (respond to it).
Szabo (chair, LPC): to clarify, you made reference to Mr. Schreiber's deportation?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I'm sorry.
12:05 PM
Comartin (NDP): the 1000 dollar bills, were these US or CAD?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: CAD
Comartin (NDP): even the 1000 dollar bills in NY?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Comartin (NDP): the 1000 dollar bills in NY--that money never came to Canada? It stayed in the states?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (stayed in the states)
Comartin (NDP): did you declare that money as income? Did you pay taxes in the US?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I declared it in Canada and paid all taxes in Canada b/c I'm a Canadian citizen, pursuant to our...
Comartin (NDP): when did you declare that income?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: after Mr. Schreiber was arrested. In 1999. (Ooops!)
Comartin (NDP): in a single year? Or over a two year period?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: my advisers figured out what cheques to sign and I did that sir.
Comartin (NDP): from 1993 to 1999, or 2000, I assume you had your own accounting firm that did your tax returns? Who were they?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Yes. (inaudible name)
Comartin (NDP): you said that when this money was received, it wasn't taxable yet b/c you hadn't prepared an invoice for Mr. Schreiber yet?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no. Because at the time, what I'd used at the time was expenses and expenses are not taxable until the matter is resolved and the bill was sent.
Comartin (NDP): Mr. Mulroney, you practised law for a long time before you became PM, but you were treating this as not revenue coming into you as a practising lawyer?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: it was completely separate from my law firm
Comartin (NDP): how would you categorize...were you a consultant?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes.
Comartin (NDP): you didn't see yourself as an employee of Thyssen?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I was an international consultant.
Comartin (NDP): just in terms of employment, when you received the 1st 100K, or 75K, you were still a MP, is that correct?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I think that's probably right, sir.
Comartin (NDP): the record shows that you received that 1st payment in August, but again, you didn't view yourself as an employee. You saw yourself as a consultant. Were you registered as a lobbyist, either under Fed legislation or any other legislation in this country at that time?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir, I've never lobbied any government.
Comartin (NDP): and you took the position that the work you did with respect to the military vehicles was all done internationally?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Comartin (NDP): you had an exchange w/Pat Martin earlier--did you feel that you were also being retained to work on obtaining contracts or business w/Mr. Schreiber about pasta?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: He (KHS) says that. I didn't say that.
Comartin (NDP): I know he says that, but I want to know, was the retainer only for the military vehicles or...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: he was in error. I believe that the pasta matters to which he refers (writing to me about Bill Gates etc.) came later. In his testimony, he says he hired me for two reasons: the Thyssen work and the anti-obesity pasta business that he proposed to develop.
Comartin (NDP): the meeting at Harrington Lake on June 23, while you were still PM. Did the business of pasta machines arise at any time during that meeting? It was only about the military vehicles?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (annoyed) No, Sir! It was about nothing! There was no conversation or undertaking of any kind regarding my employment. Bear Head was mentioned, and my only comment was my regret that it didn't come about. I was in favour of it, Mr. Comartin. It would have been a great job creator in Nova Scotia.
Comartin (NDP): when did you feel you were first retained with respect to military vehicles?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I believe the end of August (1993)
Comartin (NDP): at the time you received your 1st payment?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes, although Mr. Schreiber testifies that it was late 93 or early 94 (Note: I think he means that Schreiber testified it was late 92 or early 93, actually)
Comartin (NDP): he also testified that he gave you the money in Aug 1993...Ok, but at the time that you received the money in the hotel room, and he gave you the envelope, was there any discussion at that time about what the 75K was for?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: of course!
Comartin (NDP): so just the military vehicles or the pasta bus as well?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, just the military vehicles.
Comartin (NDP): and you were still a MP at this time?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes, I was, sir.
Comartin (NDP): with regard to how these funds were handled...not clear on the money in NY. You declared it here and paid full taxes here, w/no expenses for flying around the world. What happened to that money? Literally we have 75K sitting in a safe deposit box in NY. What happened to it?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: it stayed there until I settled everything w/Revenue Canada and Quebec.
Comartin (NDP): you told us that already. What happened to it?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: a-a-a-after that period, I integrated those funds over a period of time into my own requirements in the USA.
Comartin (NDP): so you never ran afoul of the rule about transferring amounts >$10 000 over international boundaries?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no
Comartin (NDP): you say you integrated it into your businesses in...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: cash flow.
Comartin (NDP): but you never declared it in the US...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: but I didn't have to, under the tax agreement we have w/the US, I declared my world wide income as we all must and I paid full taxes on it.
Comartin (NDP): you said you didn't have to declare it when received but only when you sent a bill. Did you ever send Mr. Schreiber a bill?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I never sent Mr. Schreiber a bill in that sense.
Comartin (NDP): why not?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Because he told you, in his testimony, he said, "I viewed Mr. Mulroney's initiative..."
Comartin (NDP): so we're supposed to believe him now?
***laughter***
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, no...not at all. You were asking me, it was his money, and ...
Comartin (NDP): no, I'm asking you what you did with it. Mr. Mulroney, I've been practising law for a long time, and it's really difficult---I mean, for every business, professional, consultant etc that I've ever acted for, they take money in, take the deductions off, and they do it all in the year that they're in...you didn't do that sir.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I didn't sir, but you're right, that's what's normally done.
Comartin (NDP): And I would suggest that you didn't declare those expenses b/c you didn't keep records and you couldn't show the income tax people...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (snarky, angry) Well, you can suggest whatever you want, Mr. Comartin, it doesn't matter, b/c I didn't claim any expenses--I paid it all as income, to the tax authorities of Canada. I'm sorry sir, but if you wish to impugn my character or integrity, that's ok (sarcastically)
Comartin (NDP): (interrupting) are you able to produce records to show that specifically that 40K/yr expenses?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, no, not 40K/yr, 40K in total
Comartin (NDP): you have expense sheets? E.g. "I flew to Russia to see Mr. Yeltsin, I flew to France to see Mr. Mitterand, I apportioned $1000 for this flight, these hotels, these restaurants?"
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I had all of them, until such time as I paid taxes on that. (and then he got rid of them--Ooopsie!)
Coming up next: Part X ("Never ask a man 'how big' it was"), or return to Part VIII ("You've been very generous with your taxes")
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