Karlheinz Schreiber returned to the Commons Ethics committee for the fourth time on Tuesday, Dec 11. As with the three previous meetings (Nov 29, Dec 4, and Dec 6) the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.Make me late for breakfast
Thibault (LPC): Thank you. Mr. Schreiber, welcome back to the cmte. First, an initial line of questioning. You mentioned Mr. Bouchard's name w/o giving any details. Do you know anyone who gave money to Mr. Bouchard, either personally or through a third party?
Schreiber: I'm very much interested to find out, but I think that's for an inquiry and should not get discussed here.
***someone asks for a point of order***
Szabo (chair, LPC): ok, I think I know where this is going...Mr. Schreiber, NOT answering questions is not an option here. If you have knowledge, you have been asked directly, you should respond, unless you can give me proper justification and I'll consider it. Primarily, questions asked by members must be answered by you.
Schreiber: I have no direct knowledge about anything, but I've heard an idea, but this can only be done when you ask other witnesses.
Thibault (LPC): at the Harrington Lake meeting in 1993, you said to BM, that you should check how much money in the Frankfurt account was available for the BHP. Subsequently, you determined that all the money in the BH account or 500K had nothing to do with the BHP.
Schreiber: yes, but I didn't say I had to check w/the BH acct, I just said I had to check if money was available.
Thibault (LPC): I'd refer you to the testimony, I went through it on the weekend. You said you had to check the BH acct or Thyssen money...
Schreiber: yes that's correct.
Thibault (LPC): so Thyssen money--you told Mr. Mulroney you were checking the Thyssen money?
Schreiber: yes.
Thibault (LPC): then you determined that 500K was available. Was that the total available from the original 4 mill dollars?
Schreiber: yes, sir.
Thibault (LPC): do you have any records for the remaining money? The 3.5 mill?
Schreiber: no
Thibault (LPC): from your hands, or money you had control of, do you know if that 3.5 mill was under the control of GCI?
Schreiber: I have no recollection, sir. I don't have the accts.
Thibault (LPC): you would have seen the accts (i.e. at one time). Do you have memory of transferring any other money from these accts (aside from Frankfurt)?
Schreiber: I have a problem w/you asking me, since there must have been more left in the acct. I kept that (the 500K) b/c the project was not finalized. There must have been more money coming to the Frankfurt acct, but it must have been distributed to Frank Moores, Gary Ouellet, or I don't know.
Thibault (LPC): so Frankfurt would receive money, through IAL from the MBB, Airbus, Thyssen commissions. They wouldn't have all gone from Frankfurt to GCI, i.e. some of them would have gone to GCI shareholders directly?
Schreiber: yes, there were requests to transfer the funds to other companies, e.g. all shareholders have sent final, direct invoices, not related to the project. Others demanded cash transfers or hand outs of cash, which I then withdrew and handed out.
Thibault (LPC): so some invoices exist? You have copies of those invoices?
Schreiber: yes. I saw them in one of the files from my lawyers. Think it's also in the docs from the 5th estate, where it says money when from Merkur, a company in Liechtenstein to Moores, Ouellet, Doucets...so I think they're all there
(***Note: I can't find a 5th estate document w/the Merkur transaction, but their site does include docs regarding Thyssen, Airbus, etc. money transfers)
Thibault (LPC): would these invoices, as they exist, equal the total of the commissions? 20 mill from airbus, 4 mill from Thyssen...
Schreiber: no. There were constant fights between the Doucets, Frank Moores and Gary Ouellet (about this)
Thibault (LPC): when you determined that you could "work" w/BM and you gave him 300K, you said it was b/c reunification of Germany, and b/c he could help w/Kim Campbell and also on an international level.
Schreiber: yes, but we have to separate this. I spoke about reasons. One was an emotional thing, to thank him somehow for reunification (nothing to do w/business). I was not paying him for that.
Thibault (LPC): so the 300 or 500K that was available for him, that was exclusively for the BHP?
Schreiber: yes, expressly for BHP at the beginning.
Thibault (LPC): and this was the project, the client you would have been working w/was Thyssen.
Schreiber: yes
Thibault (LPC): was Thyssen aware that BM was working with you on that project? That you had entered an agreement w/BM to work on that project?
Schreiber: yes, I think so.
Thibault (LPC): was he in regular contact w/Thyssen,or did he report to you?
Schreiber: no, I understand that nothing happened before the election (1993), b/c he was somehow focussed on the Oct election and that the cons would win another majority. Since the Libs won, the Thyssen company worked w/Lalonde on BHP in Quebec and worked w/officials there. Thyssen worked directly w/Marc Lalonde.
Thibault (LPC): Thyssen and Marc Lalonde. Mulroney was not working on that file any more?
Schreiber: not to my recollection, I was not involved anymore. You can understand after the brutal fight I had w/the Canadian government, after the threat to the lives of the Canadian soldiers (??), I was not in a position to negotiate w/the Liberals, even though there were some friends of mine...
Thibault (LPC): who at Thyssen would BM been in contact with?
Schreiber: I don't think this contact would have happened at all, b/c BM could do nothing (out of power, no conservative majority).
Thibault (LPC): who at Thyssen would you have advised that BM was on the file?
Schreiber: I told Mr. Marsman (phonetic-sp??) and Mr. Haastert that this is something we have to wait for and that BM is prepared to support our activities in Quebec. And the gentlemen, especially Mr. Marsman was the one who negotiated with the, I think it was Mr. Ouellet, in Quebec, on the project.
Thibault (LPC): in your March 1993 letter to PM BM, you mention a meeting w/BM, yourself and Elmer MacKay that took place at 7 Rideau Gate. What was the purpose of this meeting, or rather, was the purpose of the meeting to lobby the Canadian government about the light armoured vehicles (LAVs) from Thyssen?
Schreiber: I think the address you give is the guest house. When we came there, BM asked us to come to his house, Sussex 26 (sic) and we went there and had breakfast together.
Thibault (LPC): 24 Sussex?
Schreiber: yeah. And the meeting was about the state of the project, and particularly my concerns about the safety of the Canadian soldiers, and I showed him these metal plates from the German min defense, where we shot through the armour of the car.
(***Note: this is at least the second time today that Schreiber has alluded to his 'concern' for the safety of Canadian soldiers. I believe he made similar comments in the previous 3 hearings, too, but he never elaborates).
Thibault (LPC): so you were working w/BM, dealing on the question of Thyssen?
Schreiber: 100% I did this since '85, constantly.
Thibault (LPC): I look at the testimony that BM gave during the preliminary hearings in his lawsuit against the fed gov. Forgive me, it's from a larger context, I'm quoting: "I had had no dealings w/ Schreiber," and now there are suggestions that means prior to the testimony of that day, in general, that he had no dealings. These were dealings. You were dealing w/BM and his gov on the question of Thyssen?
Schreiber: Sure. It was my job.
Thibault (LPC): who arranged this meeting at 7 Rideau Gate?
Schreiber: Elmer MacKay, who was Min of ACOA at the time.
Thibault (LPC): who else attended this meeting?
Schreiber: no one.
Thibault (LPC): you, BM and Mr. MacKay. No execs from Thyssen?
Schreiber: no
Thibault (LPC): what was the date?
Schreiber: I really can't...(Thibault's time is up)
Continue to Part III ("Bros before PMOs"), or return to Part I ("B-b-b-benoît and the Jets").
Image: modified photo (source)
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