Karlheinz Schreiber returned to the Commons Ethics committee for the third time on Thursday, December 6. As with the two previous meetings (Nov 29 and Dec 4), the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. This is the eighth and final Part of this series. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
You can't lie to me--this is the Ethics Committee!
Martin (NDP): up until 1994, it was legal to deduct bribes as a business expense in this country (WTF?!), and I guess in Europe it was common to have "grease" money set aside for this purpose--to facilitate commerce. So there was a $20 million fund set aside for grease money.
Schreiber: we should be careful, Airbus was a French company, not a German company...the money was commission.
Martin (NDP): you had access to that money? To help sell Airbus products overseas?
Schreiber: no the money was with GCI.
Martin (NDP): the 20 mill all belonged to GCI?
Schreiber: now the agreement w/GCI was who is going to get what? How would we share? When it was agreed upon, my role was to transfer funds.
Martin (NDP): to who?
Schreiber: whomever they wanted. Account for Ouellet (Airbus money to Ouellet). Also "Teaman Trust" (phonetic--sp??) and Moores had a company called "Teachanella" (phonetic--sp??)
Martin (NDP): hard to see how this would benefit Airbus for these companies to receive money.
Schreiber: the whole Airbus thing, the way it was structured btwn government, you're aware that the Christian Social Union also got money? (Note: on Tuesday, Schreiber mentioned that he had to give $1 million of Saudi money to the CSU) Also, there was a certain structure...funds wound up w/F Mitterand. This is so common over there. (Yuck!!)
Martin (NDP): (looking disgusted): did it raise any ethical questions with you? That Doucet brothers-one was lobbying the other, and that Frank Moores was put on the board of directors of Air Canada? Is that normal in your world?
Schreiber: you saw the correspondence w/Moores and Strauss.
Martin (NDP): this is the Ethics committee. We're trying to get down to breaches of ethics of public office holders in this country. Was this business as usual in 1988 Canada?
Schreiber: I know how thing worked after election was done. I had no feelings directly...we sent invoices from my company to GCI...
Marting (NDP): the US ambassador called that "bribery"--he said Boeing lost the contract b/c Airbus bribed their way all over Ottawa.
Schreiber: the FBI was with the RCMP and they complained about all of this. No official complaint, particularly since they didn't know if BM would be re-elected.
12:49 PM
Comartin (NDP): just after settlement was made, you got a letter of apology?
Schreiber: from Alan Rock and the commish of RCMP, Mr. Murray.
Comartin (NDP): did you get any other apologies from any police force acting on behalf of the feds? Did you get to make a stmt about your relationship w/BM to the police, RCMP?
Schreiber: no.
Comartin (NDP): do you know how the apology came about?
Schreiber: I got the apology, sent to my lawyer in Edmonton.
Comartin (NDP): did he ask?
Schreiber: no, we got it after the Mulroney settlement.
Comartin (NDP): it came totally unsolicited and w/o them ever questioning your role w/BM?
Schreiber: right...you can see what I wrote Mr. Rock, in response to his apology. I said, "I'll see you in court"
****laughter****
Schreiber: I'm still waiting.
Comartin (NDP): yes, we'll come back to that lawsuit. With respect to your May 8 letter, 2007, you make points of threatening to disclose...the last one before Moores, is that BM supported fraud with respect to the Thyssen project. What did you mean?
Schreiber: I mean BM always had contact w/me and the Thyssen execs. He said the project was fine, etc. He said he was appreciative of us bringing jobs to Nova Scotia.
Comartin (NDP): the fraud was on you and your companies, not on the Canadian people?
Schreiber: right.
Comartin (NDP): you refer to "and Moores?"
Schreiber: refers to the situation around the Canadian Army, and how they must threaten the lives of the people in Nova Scotia...(??)
Comartin (NDP): b/c the end of the Bear Head project?
Schreiber: yes.
Comartin (NDP): you also told us about the $100 000 payment on June 23...watching the 5th estate, the 1st payment from BRITAIN didn't occur until July 27, 1993. Are you wrong on the date?
Schreiber: No, it wasn't till Aug 1993 that I made the 1st payment to BM.
Hubbard (LPC): as a business person you were very successful. By early 80s, you got rid of (Joe) Clark and saw your friend became PM. They improved until the company you were associated w/Airbus... got involved in a 20 mill contract. I have some difficulty w/"success fees" and who got money from it, in terms of that sale. I'm also intrigued w/Harrington Lake. You were attached to the Conservative government and you came here w/great respect for Conservative values. You had great influence. Was your visit in 1993 your first to Harrington Lake?
Schreiber: yes.
Hubbard (LPC): Doucet came and asked if BM wanted to meet w/you. You must've been elated. Doucet defined it as a "money issue." When you met w/BM, who else was there?
Schreiber: nobody. We were alone.
Hubbard (LPC): hard to believe someone who was PM for 9 years could be so hard-up that he had to invite you to a resort (HL); BM was a former lawyer and executive for Iron/Ore..."I'm just a simple man from the country, but..."
(*puke* Hubbard is using his 'Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer' tactic; aka the 'Anatomy of a Murder'/Jimmy Stewart, "I'm just a simple country lawyer..." tactic; aka the Hyperchicken from Futurama, "I'm just a simple hyperchicken from a backwoods asteroid" tactic)
Schreiber: we should be careful, Airbus was a French company, not a German company...the money was commission.
Martin (NDP): you had access to that money? To help sell Airbus products overseas?
Schreiber: no the money was with GCI.
Martin (NDP): the 20 mill all belonged to GCI?
Schreiber: now the agreement w/GCI was who is going to get what? How would we share? When it was agreed upon, my role was to transfer funds.
Martin (NDP): to who?
Schreiber: whomever they wanted. Account for Ouellet (Airbus money to Ouellet). Also "Teaman Trust" (phonetic--sp??) and Moores had a company called "Teachanella" (phonetic--sp??)
Martin (NDP): hard to see how this would benefit Airbus for these companies to receive money.
Schreiber: the whole Airbus thing, the way it was structured btwn government, you're aware that the Christian Social Union also got money? (Note: on Tuesday, Schreiber mentioned that he had to give $1 million of Saudi money to the CSU) Also, there was a certain structure...funds wound up w/F Mitterand. This is so common over there. (Yuck!!)
Martin (NDP): (looking disgusted): did it raise any ethical questions with you? That Doucet brothers-one was lobbying the other, and that Frank Moores was put on the board of directors of Air Canada? Is that normal in your world?
Schreiber: you saw the correspondence w/Moores and Strauss.
Martin (NDP): this is the Ethics committee. We're trying to get down to breaches of ethics of public office holders in this country. Was this business as usual in 1988 Canada?
Schreiber: I know how thing worked after election was done. I had no feelings directly...we sent invoices from my company to GCI...
Marting (NDP): the US ambassador called that "bribery"--he said Boeing lost the contract b/c Airbus bribed their way all over Ottawa.
Schreiber: the FBI was with the RCMP and they complained about all of this. No official complaint, particularly since they didn't know if BM would be re-elected.
12:49 PM
Comartin (NDP): just after settlement was made, you got a letter of apology?
Schreiber: from Alan Rock and the commish of RCMP, Mr. Murray.
Comartin (NDP): did you get any other apologies from any police force acting on behalf of the feds? Did you get to make a stmt about your relationship w/BM to the police, RCMP?
Schreiber: no.
Comartin (NDP): do you know how the apology came about?
Schreiber: I got the apology, sent to my lawyer in Edmonton.
Comartin (NDP): did he ask?
Schreiber: no, we got it after the Mulroney settlement.
Comartin (NDP): it came totally unsolicited and w/o them ever questioning your role w/BM?
Schreiber: right...you can see what I wrote Mr. Rock, in response to his apology. I said, "I'll see you in court"
****laughter****
Schreiber: I'm still waiting.
Comartin (NDP): yes, we'll come back to that lawsuit. With respect to your May 8 letter, 2007, you make points of threatening to disclose...the last one before Moores, is that BM supported fraud with respect to the Thyssen project. What did you mean?
Schreiber: I mean BM always had contact w/me and the Thyssen execs. He said the project was fine, etc. He said he was appreciative of us bringing jobs to Nova Scotia.
Comartin (NDP): the fraud was on you and your companies, not on the Canadian people?
Schreiber: right.
Comartin (NDP): you refer to "and Moores?"
Schreiber: refers to the situation around the Canadian Army, and how they must threaten the lives of the people in Nova Scotia...(??)
Comartin (NDP): b/c the end of the Bear Head project?
Schreiber: yes.
Comartin (NDP): you also told us about the $100 000 payment on June 23...watching the 5th estate, the 1st payment from BRITAIN didn't occur until July 27, 1993. Are you wrong on the date?
Schreiber: No, it wasn't till Aug 1993 that I made the 1st payment to BM.
Hubbard (LPC): as a business person you were very successful. By early 80s, you got rid of (Joe) Clark and saw your friend became PM. They improved until the company you were associated w/Airbus... got involved in a 20 mill contract. I have some difficulty w/"success fees" and who got money from it, in terms of that sale. I'm also intrigued w/Harrington Lake. You were attached to the Conservative government and you came here w/great respect for Conservative values. You had great influence. Was your visit in 1993 your first to Harrington Lake?
Schreiber: yes.
Hubbard (LPC): Doucet came and asked if BM wanted to meet w/you. You must've been elated. Doucet defined it as a "money issue." When you met w/BM, who else was there?
Schreiber: nobody. We were alone.
Hubbard (LPC): hard to believe someone who was PM for 9 years could be so hard-up that he had to invite you to a resort (HL); BM was a former lawyer and executive for Iron/Ore..."I'm just a simple man from the country, but..."
(*puke* Hubbard is using his 'Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer' tactic; aka the 'Anatomy of a Murder'/Jimmy Stewart, "I'm just a simple country lawyer..." tactic; aka the Hyperchicken from Futurama, "I'm just a simple hyperchicken from a backwoods asteroid" tactic)
Schreiber: he didn't even ask me for money that day. The conversation started w/Doucet, since the media said that BM sold all the furniture at 24 Sussex. Elmer (MacKay) was out of his mind...he had bought the furniture, and it had to be bought-back. I knew his terrible situation, so there was nothing to be discussed. I wouldn't have had any reason to embarrass BM. I could help him and there was also the reunification of Germany (I was grateful for that).
Hubbard (LPC): but we knew there was at least 20 mill involved---10 mill of which was missing. You said this morning that cash was a good no-trail system. There's this group, CGI setup w/Moores. Did you believe that BM had received money before this for his work w/Airbus?
Schreiber: no
Hubbard (LPC): but some people thought he was on the take? Do you know who CGI was distributing money to?
Schreiber: in this world, where money goes, the first thing you have to do...If you try to keep proof, it's only to use it in the next round to blackmail for another order. That is deadly sir. If you want to be professional, you don't do it.
Hubbard (LPC): is this the Canadian way? Do you believe you're called to Harrington Lake and then money wasn't talked about? I think you must've had a hard time as a Conservative, watching 13 years of good government...
***guffaws erupt from across the room***
Hubbard (LPC): ...well, I thought it was good government--and with it, you must have sat back, watching a number of people trying to become PM, and then watching Peter MacKay and BM make a deal, you must have been elated in Jan 2006 (when Harper was elected), and you saw a way to fix your problem.
Schreiber: yes. And then I was disappointed. It was no secret.
Hubbard (LPC): the way to do this was for you to write a letter to BM. How did you know that BM was meeting w/Harper? (Ahh! Good question, actually...)
Schreiber: b/c I learned from Elmer MacKay that the meeting was on for the end of July or the 1st part of Aug, and I told you what the feedback was.
Hubbard (LPC): and the feedback of that meeting was that he had discussed it w/PM and you expected some "good Conservative results."
Schreiber: what I wanted, Sir, was for an inquiry; it was in each and every letter I wrote. For my name to be cleared in this whole mess, b/c of the conservatives.
Hubbard (LPC): who told you it was a good meeting and that you would have some results?
Schreiber: had my doubts but I finally thought he'd come to grips and would do the right thing, sure.
Hubbard (LPC): Brian Mulroney? And today, you're very critical of BM but you felt that the younger MacKay was not a very good friend of yours.
Schreiber: he never was a close friend of mine. To be fair, I never socialized with him. I referred to our recruitment for Thyssen...my observations were later on. I keep w/great thanks to Elmer, but I have nothing in common w/his son.
Hubbard (LPC): thank you.
Szabo (chair, LPC): ok, anyone not participating in-camera must go. No interviews in this room. Take it outside. Mr. Schreiber, we'll need you again on Dec 11, 11AM.
***Adjournment***
Return to Part VII ("Bless this Mess"), or return to Part I ("Who's Afraid of a Big, Bad Inquiry?").
Photo Credit: Bestuff.com
Hubbard (LPC): but we knew there was at least 20 mill involved---10 mill of which was missing. You said this morning that cash was a good no-trail system. There's this group, CGI setup w/Moores. Did you believe that BM had received money before this for his work w/Airbus?
Schreiber: no
Hubbard (LPC): but some people thought he was on the take? Do you know who CGI was distributing money to?
Schreiber: in this world, where money goes, the first thing you have to do...If you try to keep proof, it's only to use it in the next round to blackmail for another order. That is deadly sir. If you want to be professional, you don't do it.
Hubbard (LPC): is this the Canadian way? Do you believe you're called to Harrington Lake and then money wasn't talked about? I think you must've had a hard time as a Conservative, watching 13 years of good government...
***guffaws erupt from across the room***
Hubbard (LPC): ...well, I thought it was good government--and with it, you must have sat back, watching a number of people trying to become PM, and then watching Peter MacKay and BM make a deal, you must have been elated in Jan 2006 (when Harper was elected), and you saw a way to fix your problem.
Schreiber: yes. And then I was disappointed. It was no secret.
Hubbard (LPC): the way to do this was for you to write a letter to BM. How did you know that BM was meeting w/Harper? (Ahh! Good question, actually...)
Schreiber: b/c I learned from Elmer MacKay that the meeting was on for the end of July or the 1st part of Aug, and I told you what the feedback was.
Hubbard (LPC): and the feedback of that meeting was that he had discussed it w/PM and you expected some "good Conservative results."
Schreiber: what I wanted, Sir, was for an inquiry; it was in each and every letter I wrote. For my name to be cleared in this whole mess, b/c of the conservatives.
Hubbard (LPC): who told you it was a good meeting and that you would have some results?
Schreiber: had my doubts but I finally thought he'd come to grips and would do the right thing, sure.
Hubbard (LPC): Brian Mulroney? And today, you're very critical of BM but you felt that the younger MacKay was not a very good friend of yours.
Schreiber: he never was a close friend of mine. To be fair, I never socialized with him. I referred to our recruitment for Thyssen...my observations were later on. I keep w/great thanks to Elmer, but I have nothing in common w/his son.
Hubbard (LPC): thank you.
Szabo (chair, LPC): ok, anyone not participating in-camera must go. No interviews in this room. Take it outside. Mr. Schreiber, we'll need you again on Dec 11, 11AM.
***Adjournment***
Return to Part VII ("Bless this Mess"), or return to Part I ("Who's Afraid of a Big, Bad Inquiry?").
Photo Credit: Bestuff.com
2 comments:
Thanks!
Very useful.
Appalling that the Ethics Committee does not rush transcripts out after each session; there are thousands of concerned Canadians waiting to read about the extraordinary way in which our government was corrupted by lobbyists in the 1980's.....
Hi Curiositycat! Thanks so much for stopping by and reading :)
I'm shocked that the transcripts aren't up on the Committee website yet. My notes are certainly not 'verbatim,' but I hope they're useful to people.
Cheers!
GDK
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