Karlheinz Schreiber returned to the Commons Ethics committee for the fourth time on Tuesday, Dec 11. As with the three previous meetings (Nov 29, Dec 4, and Dec 6) the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
Bros before PMOs
11:54 AM
Lavallée (BQ): thanks. Mr. Schreiber, I'd like to come back to the letter of May 8th. You told us that Fred Doucet asked you at the end of 92 or beginning of 93 to transfer money to BM's lawyer in Switzerland. Do you have any more specific info about this? When did Fred Doucet ask you to do this? Were you in the offices of GCI at the time?
Schreiber: yes
Lavallée (BQ): did Doucet have an office of his own at GCI?
Schreiber: no, his brother had an office in there. I know it was GCI, b/c after the meeting I went immediately to Mr. Moores
Lavallée (BQ): how much money did he ask you for?
Schreiber: didn't name an amount.
Lavallée (BQ): did he speak of a percentage?
Schreiber: no
Lavallée (BQ): how did he ask you, then. Doesn't seem like he'd just walk up to you and say, "Look, we need some cash in Mr. Lawyer's bank account."
Schreiber: I should convince Mr. Moores and he should decide how much money should go. I couldn't decide that for GCI, that was up to Mr. Moores to decide if/how much money (should go to BM via his lawyer).
Lavallée (BQ): why did he ask you, then? Why didn't Doucet go to his brother (who worked at GCI) to do this? Why did he go through you?
Schreiber: one thing is, I'm not sure if Mr. Doucet was a shareholder or only Jerry was a shareholder of GCI. Second, I told you several times that there was a constant fight w/Moores about money and Doucet wanted me to ask. (Impatiently) Ma'am, it's not uncommon in business for people to fight constantly.
Lavallée (BQ): (laughing, sarcastically) Help me to understand, here, please. You're at GCI offices. Fred Doucet--who doesn't work there, but he's a lobbyist and former Chief Of Staff to BM. And rather than ask his brother to ask Frank Moores, he asks you and you're outside of GCI altogether, unless it was you who gave the money to GCI.
***gah! Newsworld's Don Newman interrupting Schreiber's answer***
Lavallée (BQ): How much money are we talking about? How much was transferred to GCI by you?
Schreiber: I have no recollection, ma'am. It was 20 yrs ago, from MBB, Airbus, Thyssen...how do I know how much I transferred to GCI or was asked to send somewhere else? How much cash I brought to Canada? How do I know? (*shrugging* innocently)
Szabo (chair, LPC): Mr. Schreiber, the question was not "to the penny," but Mme. L wants to know the relative magnitude-5 mill, 20 mill?
Schreiber: I'd say not less than 5 mill, but this is in the book-keeping at GCI. At least it's in the accts. You can ask the 5th estate, look at Frankfurt acct, but b/c I never took any accts from them--you may laugh at me, I'm perhaps a strange bird, but I'm not that nosy and I didn't care, and by the way, I had other things to do, too. (Ok, ok...jeesh!)
Lavallée (BQ): but I would prefer you would answer, rather than me having to go ask the 5th estate. Well, Airbus...you had a contract with them, and if we look at the accounts, it added up to about $20 mill. Was this amount for Airbus, was it deposited into one of your accts fully, all at once, or in a number of installments? How did this $20 mill...
Schreiber: I never calculated it, but it was installments over the years, and it depended, over the years, on the delivery of the aircraft.
Lavallée (BQ): So Airbus money went first into your accts and then you distributed it?
Schreiber: no, it went first into the IAL acct and then, most of the time IAL transferred the money until Mr. Pelossi stole the money.
Lavallée (BQ): but you said that he only 1 billion went into your accts and then you distributed about 5 million to GCI?
Schreiber: no, the business was done between companies and GCI. I was not the one who could deliver the contract.
Lavallée (BQ): no, but you gave 5 million to GCI, you did say that...
Schreiber: but of course, that was the agreement that the Germans would receive something--everybody knows for the Christian Social Union, that something went to the French direction, for the political deal.
Lavallée (BQ): but I don't understand...you got money from Airbus into various payments into IAL. The $20 mill went into IAL, in installments and there was some switching among bank accts, there wasn't a single cheque and you distributed into other accts. You said you put 5 mill into GCI acct?
Schreiber: I was just estimating, 5 million. It was an estimate.
Lavallée (BQ): why did Fred Doucet want you to suggest to Frank Moores to transfer money into BM's lawyer's acct?
Schreiber: I don't know. You must ask him. I told you I went to Moores and asked him, "What's this all about," and he told me to "Stay away," and I was happy to stay away from that.
Lavallée (BQ): what was the name of BM's lawyer in Switzerland?
Schreiber: (exasperated) I don't know. Ma'am, I told you, I spoke to Frank Moores and then it was over. Why, after 20 years would I know what guy it was? How would I know if it's true or if Fred Doucet wanted to set aside some money for himself? (Whooahhh! Drive-by attack on Doucet!)
Lavallée (BQ): perhaps you knew BM's lawyer? Perhaps you knew him in Switzerland?
Schreiber: I don't know BM's lawyers, I never met one of them...I thought you referred to Mr. Doucet.
Lavallée (BQ): you also said in your letter that you had received payments from GCI, Frank Moores, Fred Doucet and G Ouellet, with their comments, usually that means a list--does that mean in addition to GCI? (I don't understand this question...)
Schreiber: It was agreed upon, at least what Mr. Moores told me in the 80s, that GCI would look after BM when he was no longer PM, he'd work w/GCI. That GCI--this is the complete business, this had nothing to do with one project or another. But again, perhaps you'll have a chance to ask others about it. (so cagey, Mr. Schreiber...)
Lavallée (BQ): apart from rumours that had dogged him, what other indication or motivation did you have to write this letter (the May 8th letter), how did you know there had been other money paid (to BM)
Schreiber: this was my understanding from Frank Moores, G Ouellet, and when all this was discussed at the beginning--that GCI would get all this lobbying business--this was in the 80s and the discussion was in the Ritz Carlton.
Continue to Part IV ("Won't get fooled again!"), or return to Part II ("Make me late for breakfast").
Bros before PMOs
11:54 AM
Lavallée (BQ): thanks. Mr. Schreiber, I'd like to come back to the letter of May 8th. You told us that Fred Doucet asked you at the end of 92 or beginning of 93 to transfer money to BM's lawyer in Switzerland. Do you have any more specific info about this? When did Fred Doucet ask you to do this? Were you in the offices of GCI at the time?
Schreiber: yes
Lavallée (BQ): did Doucet have an office of his own at GCI?
Schreiber: no, his brother had an office in there. I know it was GCI, b/c after the meeting I went immediately to Mr. Moores
Lavallée (BQ): how much money did he ask you for?
Schreiber: didn't name an amount.
Lavallée (BQ): did he speak of a percentage?
Schreiber: no
Lavallée (BQ): how did he ask you, then. Doesn't seem like he'd just walk up to you and say, "Look, we need some cash in Mr. Lawyer's bank account."
Schreiber: I should convince Mr. Moores and he should decide how much money should go. I couldn't decide that for GCI, that was up to Mr. Moores to decide if/how much money (should go to BM via his lawyer).
Lavallée (BQ): why did he ask you, then? Why didn't Doucet go to his brother (who worked at GCI) to do this? Why did he go through you?
Schreiber: one thing is, I'm not sure if Mr. Doucet was a shareholder or only Jerry was a shareholder of GCI. Second, I told you several times that there was a constant fight w/Moores about money and Doucet wanted me to ask. (Impatiently) Ma'am, it's not uncommon in business for people to fight constantly.
Lavallée (BQ): (laughing, sarcastically) Help me to understand, here, please. You're at GCI offices. Fred Doucet--who doesn't work there, but he's a lobbyist and former Chief Of Staff to BM. And rather than ask his brother to ask Frank Moores, he asks you and you're outside of GCI altogether, unless it was you who gave the money to GCI.
***gah! Newsworld's Don Newman interrupting Schreiber's answer***
Lavallée (BQ): How much money are we talking about? How much was transferred to GCI by you?
Schreiber: I have no recollection, ma'am. It was 20 yrs ago, from MBB, Airbus, Thyssen...how do I know how much I transferred to GCI or was asked to send somewhere else? How much cash I brought to Canada? How do I know? (*shrugging* innocently)
Szabo (chair, LPC): Mr. Schreiber, the question was not "to the penny," but Mme. L wants to know the relative magnitude-5 mill, 20 mill?
Schreiber: I'd say not less than 5 mill, but this is in the book-keeping at GCI. At least it's in the accts. You can ask the 5th estate, look at Frankfurt acct, but b/c I never took any accts from them--you may laugh at me, I'm perhaps a strange bird, but I'm not that nosy and I didn't care, and by the way, I had other things to do, too. (Ok, ok...jeesh!)
Lavallée (BQ): but I would prefer you would answer, rather than me having to go ask the 5th estate. Well, Airbus...you had a contract with them, and if we look at the accounts, it added up to about $20 mill. Was this amount for Airbus, was it deposited into one of your accts fully, all at once, or in a number of installments? How did this $20 mill...
Schreiber: I never calculated it, but it was installments over the years, and it depended, over the years, on the delivery of the aircraft.
Lavallée (BQ): So Airbus money went first into your accts and then you distributed it?
Schreiber: no, it went first into the IAL acct and then, most of the time IAL transferred the money until Mr. Pelossi stole the money.
Lavallée (BQ): but you said that he only 1 billion went into your accts and then you distributed about 5 million to GCI?
Schreiber: no, the business was done between companies and GCI. I was not the one who could deliver the contract.
Lavallée (BQ): no, but you gave 5 million to GCI, you did say that...
Schreiber: but of course, that was the agreement that the Germans would receive something--everybody knows for the Christian Social Union, that something went to the French direction, for the political deal.
Lavallée (BQ): but I don't understand...you got money from Airbus into various payments into IAL. The $20 mill went into IAL, in installments and there was some switching among bank accts, there wasn't a single cheque and you distributed into other accts. You said you put 5 mill into GCI acct?
Schreiber: I was just estimating, 5 million. It was an estimate.
Lavallée (BQ): why did Fred Doucet want you to suggest to Frank Moores to transfer money into BM's lawyer's acct?
Schreiber: I don't know. You must ask him. I told you I went to Moores and asked him, "What's this all about," and he told me to "Stay away," and I was happy to stay away from that.
Lavallée (BQ): what was the name of BM's lawyer in Switzerland?
Schreiber: (exasperated) I don't know. Ma'am, I told you, I spoke to Frank Moores and then it was over. Why, after 20 years would I know what guy it was? How would I know if it's true or if Fred Doucet wanted to set aside some money for himself? (Whooahhh! Drive-by attack on Doucet!)
Lavallée (BQ): perhaps you knew BM's lawyer? Perhaps you knew him in Switzerland?
Schreiber: I don't know BM's lawyers, I never met one of them...I thought you referred to Mr. Doucet.
Lavallée (BQ): you also said in your letter that you had received payments from GCI, Frank Moores, Fred Doucet and G Ouellet, with their comments, usually that means a list--does that mean in addition to GCI? (I don't understand this question...)
Schreiber: It was agreed upon, at least what Mr. Moores told me in the 80s, that GCI would look after BM when he was no longer PM, he'd work w/GCI. That GCI--this is the complete business, this had nothing to do with one project or another. But again, perhaps you'll have a chance to ask others about it. (so cagey, Mr. Schreiber...)
Lavallée (BQ): apart from rumours that had dogged him, what other indication or motivation did you have to write this letter (the May 8th letter), how did you know there had been other money paid (to BM)
Schreiber: this was my understanding from Frank Moores, G Ouellet, and when all this was discussed at the beginning--that GCI would get all this lobbying business--this was in the 80s and the discussion was in the Ritz Carlton.
Continue to Part IV ("Won't get fooled again!"), or return to Part II ("Make me late for breakfast").
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