Karlheinz Schreiber returned to the Commons Ethics committee for the fourth time on Tuesday, Dec 11. As with the three previous meetings (Nov 29, Dec 4, and Dec 6) the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
Won't get fooled again!
12:05 PM
Martin (NDP): Good morning. More and more, all your stories seem to lead to GCI, which is why we wanted witnesses from GCI, and unfortunately they were unable to be here. But you testified earlier that these commissions went to GCI and were then distributed to shareholders into "trusts," (term used last time)...could any of these trusts be held by BM?
Schreiber: I have no idea
Martin (NDP): but you did say that the arrangement was that GCI would take care of BM after he left public office. Do you think F Moores and these other guys were using GCI as some sort of piggy bank, so that they could stockpile commissions in BM's name, so that he could withdraw them at another time?
Schreiber: I don't know. I should say that there was a big fallout between BM and Mr. Moores. It was after the Thyssen disaster, I would guess.
Martin (NDP): were there any other gifts, money or other benefits that you arranged for other public office holders?
Schreiber: no
Martin (NDP): you never tried to influence public office holders by offering them gifts, money...
Schreiber: when you speak about fundraising dinners or something like that, then yes.
Martin (NDP): how bout arranging for airplanes full of delegates to go to the 83 (PC) convention, to interfere w/Canadian politics w/foreign money?
Schreiber: well, that was the idea of Walter Wolf, for me to help...
Martin (NDP): how much did you help him?
Schreiber: I think the first time was $25K, but then I made this Port Atlantis deal w/Moores for them to have more cash. But what the cash in detail was used for, I don't know, they only told me later about paying the people to go (to the convention)
Martin (NDP): so you helped buy the leadership that created the next Prime Minister of Canada. Were you a citizen of Canada at the time?
Schreiber: I became Canadian in 1982
Martin (NDP): where did the money come from?
Schreiber: came from myself, Franz Josef Strauss and probably from the CSU (Christian Social Union).
Martin (NDP): what about another leadership race---did you play a role in Peter MacKay's leadership aspirations?
Schreiber: no, I told you this before. Oh! (just remembering) there was also Mr. Charest...
Martin (NDP): that's another leadership race. You testified earlier that (looooong pause)...did you discuss w/BM at any time during his tenure as PM or in the 2 yrs following, that the PM would give any advice, paid or unpaid, in other words: lobby on your behalf to anyone w/in the government of Canada, including Kim Campbell?
Schreiber: well, he said he would be in a very favourable position if she (Kim Campbell) won and that he could help.
Martin (NDP): that was at the June 1993 meeting at Harrington Lake?
Schreiber: yeah.
Martin (NDP): he said he could, in fact, influence the next gov?
Schreiber: that was the understanding.
(passing to Mulcair)
12:09 PM
Mulcair (NDP): Mr. Schreiber, in your testimony to this cmte last week, you said you "nearly froze" and that you heard "I want you to make sure that GCI transfers certain amount of money to Geneva, to a lawyer in Geneva, Mr. Mulroney's lawyer." Can you give us the ID of that lawyer?
Schreiber: I told you already, I don't have that (name).
Mulcair (NDP): yes, I heard your answer to Mme. Lavallée, but I'm surprised to hear you don't have that name. The way you said it to this cmte last week, it sounded like you knew the lawyer.
Schreiber: What troubled me at the time...I may have written it (the lawyer's name) down, but I was completely irritated by the whole thing, so why would I (write it down)? B/c I did not want to get involved in this, so this is why I asked Moores. Normally I write down things, but this time I don't know.
Mulcair (NDP): my colleague from Winnipeg (Martin) asked you if you knew or were involved in giving money, directly or indirectly. Let me ask it slightly differently: to your knowledge, has anyone benefitted, directly or indirectly from the sums that you transferred to GCI? Other than BM?
Schreiber: (confused)
Mulcair (NDP): other public office holders? Other senior officials?
Schreiber: I've no knowledge about that.
Mulcair (NDP): under the Conflict of Interest and Post-Employment Code for Public Office Holders of 1985, ministers, parliamentary secretaries and senior public office holders were prohibited from accepting employment from anyone w/an ongoing matter before the government for a period of 2 yrs after they left office. Was this ever discussed between you and BM?
Schreiber: no
Mulcair (NDP): Mr. Mulroney, therefore, when you offered him 300K to work w/you on BHP, he never made any indication to you that there might be a problem w/existing conflict rules?
Schreiber: no
Mulcair (NDP): what was the reason, to the best of your knowledge, for making those transfers of cash in cities around the world, the Hotel Pierre, the Mirabel, and the one in Switzerland? What was his motivation, did he communicate it with you?
Schreiber: no. To be fair, it was not discussed and I brought the cash. I found out in the meantime, that all the meetings were not by chance, they were all arranged by Fred Doucet. Not only HL, but also the Queen Elizabeth, it was also the meeting in New York.
Mulcair (NDP): you've already explained to us that the 500K that turned out to be 300K was for future consideration for work on the BHP. What's unclear to me still is, given your frustration for the fact that he did nothing...I'm still having trouble understanding why...a mistake is something you do once, but it's not something you do over and over again. Mr. Mulroney's main line of defense appears to be (*smacks forehead*) oh, darnit, what a terrible mistake I made, I took 300K in three separate cash payments! A mistake is something you do once, not something you keep repeating. So why did you keep giving him money, even though he never delivered on your deal?
Schreiber: sir, by that time, I didn't know that. It was always the "bad Liberals," Mr. Fowler, Mr. Tellier, you will find this pretty soon when we come to Bear Head. He tried always to do his best (I thought). I found out much later that he cancelled the project. When you look at me and we both are not that young, but you will not believe that I'd give him one nickel, but he cancelled quietly the project and made us look like crooks. Forget it.
Mulcair (NDP): You mentioned the names of some Liberals. Could you repeat the names, slowly of the other Liberals involved. You've mentioned Marc Lalonde, there was an article in the Halifax Chron Herald last week about his lobbying and failure to register as a lobbyist. You mentioned Mr. Tellier, was that Paul Tellier?
Schreiber: Paul Tellier.
Mulcair (NDP): who else was involved on the Liberal side?
Schreiber: no he was in office, in the Privy Council's ...
Mulcair (NDP): ok. What was his role here?
Schreiber: (confused and annoyed) No, I just mentioned that he was one of the "bad Liberals" targeted by BM like Fowler and others who made the problems w/the project.
Mulcair (NDP): Bob Fowler? In other words, he was one of the ones that BM was blaming for the project (failure)?
Schreiber: yes, I had no idea that he would have ever been against it. That's the real bad part of the story.
Mulcair (NDP): thank you.
Continue to Part V ("You may be the next one who's going to sell hot dogs"), or return to Part III ("Bros before PMOs").
Who Photo brazenly filched from Newmania in Lewes
Won't get fooled again!
12:05 PM
Martin (NDP): Good morning. More and more, all your stories seem to lead to GCI, which is why we wanted witnesses from GCI, and unfortunately they were unable to be here. But you testified earlier that these commissions went to GCI and were then distributed to shareholders into "trusts," (term used last time)...could any of these trusts be held by BM?
Schreiber: I have no idea
Martin (NDP): but you did say that the arrangement was that GCI would take care of BM after he left public office. Do you think F Moores and these other guys were using GCI as some sort of piggy bank, so that they could stockpile commissions in BM's name, so that he could withdraw them at another time?
Schreiber: I don't know. I should say that there was a big fallout between BM and Mr. Moores. It was after the Thyssen disaster, I would guess.
Martin (NDP): were there any other gifts, money or other benefits that you arranged for other public office holders?
Schreiber: no
Martin (NDP): you never tried to influence public office holders by offering them gifts, money...
Schreiber: when you speak about fundraising dinners or something like that, then yes.
Martin (NDP): how bout arranging for airplanes full of delegates to go to the 83 (PC) convention, to interfere w/Canadian politics w/foreign money?
Schreiber: well, that was the idea of Walter Wolf, for me to help...
Martin (NDP): how much did you help him?
Schreiber: I think the first time was $25K, but then I made this Port Atlantis deal w/Moores for them to have more cash. But what the cash in detail was used for, I don't know, they only told me later about paying the people to go (to the convention)
Martin (NDP): so you helped buy the leadership that created the next Prime Minister of Canada. Were you a citizen of Canada at the time?
Schreiber: I became Canadian in 1982
Martin (NDP): where did the money come from?
Schreiber: came from myself, Franz Josef Strauss and probably from the CSU (Christian Social Union).
Martin (NDP): what about another leadership race---did you play a role in Peter MacKay's leadership aspirations?
Schreiber: no, I told you this before. Oh! (just remembering) there was also Mr. Charest...
Martin (NDP): that's another leadership race. You testified earlier that (looooong pause)...did you discuss w/BM at any time during his tenure as PM or in the 2 yrs following, that the PM would give any advice, paid or unpaid, in other words: lobby on your behalf to anyone w/in the government of Canada, including Kim Campbell?
Schreiber: well, he said he would be in a very favourable position if she (Kim Campbell) won and that he could help.
Martin (NDP): that was at the June 1993 meeting at Harrington Lake?
Schreiber: yeah.
Martin (NDP): he said he could, in fact, influence the next gov?
Schreiber: that was the understanding.
(passing to Mulcair)
12:09 PM
Mulcair (NDP): Mr. Schreiber, in your testimony to this cmte last week, you said you "nearly froze" and that you heard "I want you to make sure that GCI transfers certain amount of money to Geneva, to a lawyer in Geneva, Mr. Mulroney's lawyer." Can you give us the ID of that lawyer?
Schreiber: I told you already, I don't have that (name).
Mulcair (NDP): yes, I heard your answer to Mme. Lavallée, but I'm surprised to hear you don't have that name. The way you said it to this cmte last week, it sounded like you knew the lawyer.
Schreiber: What troubled me at the time...I may have written it (the lawyer's name) down, but I was completely irritated by the whole thing, so why would I (write it down)? B/c I did not want to get involved in this, so this is why I asked Moores. Normally I write down things, but this time I don't know.
Mulcair (NDP): my colleague from Winnipeg (Martin) asked you if you knew or were involved in giving money, directly or indirectly. Let me ask it slightly differently: to your knowledge, has anyone benefitted, directly or indirectly from the sums that you transferred to GCI? Other than BM?
Schreiber: (confused)
Mulcair (NDP): other public office holders? Other senior officials?
Schreiber: I've no knowledge about that.
Mulcair (NDP): under the Conflict of Interest and Post-Employment Code for Public Office Holders of 1985, ministers, parliamentary secretaries and senior public office holders were prohibited from accepting employment from anyone w/an ongoing matter before the government for a period of 2 yrs after they left office. Was this ever discussed between you and BM?
Schreiber: no
Mulcair (NDP): Mr. Mulroney, therefore, when you offered him 300K to work w/you on BHP, he never made any indication to you that there might be a problem w/existing conflict rules?
Schreiber: no
Mulcair (NDP): what was the reason, to the best of your knowledge, for making those transfers of cash in cities around the world, the Hotel Pierre, the Mirabel, and the one in Switzerland? What was his motivation, did he communicate it with you?
Schreiber: no. To be fair, it was not discussed and I brought the cash. I found out in the meantime, that all the meetings were not by chance, they were all arranged by Fred Doucet. Not only HL, but also the Queen Elizabeth, it was also the meeting in New York.
Mulcair (NDP): you've already explained to us that the 500K that turned out to be 300K was for future consideration for work on the BHP. What's unclear to me still is, given your frustration for the fact that he did nothing...I'm still having trouble understanding why...a mistake is something you do once, but it's not something you do over and over again. Mr. Mulroney's main line of defense appears to be (*smacks forehead*) oh, darnit, what a terrible mistake I made, I took 300K in three separate cash payments! A mistake is something you do once, not something you keep repeating. So why did you keep giving him money, even though he never delivered on your deal?
Schreiber: sir, by that time, I didn't know that. It was always the "bad Liberals," Mr. Fowler, Mr. Tellier, you will find this pretty soon when we come to Bear Head. He tried always to do his best (I thought). I found out much later that he cancelled the project. When you look at me and we both are not that young, but you will not believe that I'd give him one nickel, but he cancelled quietly the project and made us look like crooks. Forget it.
Mulcair (NDP): You mentioned the names of some Liberals. Could you repeat the names, slowly of the other Liberals involved. You've mentioned Marc Lalonde, there was an article in the Halifax Chron Herald last week about his lobbying and failure to register as a lobbyist. You mentioned Mr. Tellier, was that Paul Tellier?
Schreiber: Paul Tellier.
Mulcair (NDP): who else was involved on the Liberal side?
Schreiber: no he was in office, in the Privy Council's ...
Mulcair (NDP): ok. What was his role here?
Schreiber: (confused and annoyed) No, I just mentioned that he was one of the "bad Liberals" targeted by BM like Fowler and others who made the problems w/the project.
Mulcair (NDP): Bob Fowler? In other words, he was one of the ones that BM was blaming for the project (failure)?
Schreiber: yes, I had no idea that he would have ever been against it. That's the real bad part of the story.
Mulcair (NDP): thank you.
Continue to Part V ("You may be the next one who's going to sell hot dogs"), or return to Part III ("Bros before PMOs").
Who Photo brazenly filched from Newmania in Lewes
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