The Right Honourable Brian Mulroney (or "BM," as I've come to know him) presented himself to the Commons Ethics committee for an exhausting 3 1/2 hours on Thursday. As with the Schreiber testimony (Nov 29, Dec 4, Dec 6, and Dec 11) the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
9:35 AM
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you, Mr. Mulroney, for your stmt. (oops, problem w/the earpieces. Szabo is smiling and looking a bit nervous and fidgety about all of this) Just for clarification, twice during your stmt, you referred to leaving "public office," and questions have come up in our proceedings related to the timing of matters as related to stepping down as PM or as an MP. So, when you referred to "leaving public office," were you referring to being PM or when you left as an MP?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I was referring to stepping down as PM.
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you, kindly. I understand, Mr. Mulroney, you would like to have a little break at this time. I accede to your request. Suspend now and resume at 9:50 AM.
9:53 AM
Thibault (LPC): I understand that, for you and your family, that these allegations would be very difficult. But understand that you are here today b/c you received $300K in cash, and that leaves a lot of questions in peoples' minds. One of the questions that I have--remaining questions--and even Mr. Schreiber said there was no money related to Airbus. But what happened to all these commissions by MBB, by Airbus in Canada? If not to you, then to people close to your gov, and we must continue to explore this question. I think we need an inquiry. Your work for Thyssen, after you left the position of PM--you said you were working for Thyssen on "international" matters and not domestic?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: that's correct.
Thibault (LPC): the two subsequent payments of $100K you received while you were working at the law firm?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes.
Thibault (LPC): did the payments go through the law firm or to you directly?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I should say, Mr. Chairman, before Mr. Thibault goes any further, that I want to indicate formally--which I indicated the only other time I discussed this on the record in the G&M on 10 November 2003--I was asked and I indicated that I had been compensated in cash for the transaction, but as I told the G&M, was that there was a dispute about the amount. It was 75K per year for 3 yrs work-total of $225K.
Thibault (LPC): did the money go through the law firm, the two subsequent amounts?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: they didn't go through the law firm (Whoops!)
Thibault (LPC): thank you...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (annoyed) No, just a minute! I negotiated a provision w/the law firm that would allow me to deal with this kind of matter in the manner that I did. It was an exception...
Thibault (LPC): thank you
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: it was a single exception to the partnership rule.
Thibault (LPC): thank you, I appreciate your brevity. You were working for Thyssen internationally--did you report to Thyssen on the work that you did, either in written reports to Thyssen or to Mr. S?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: not in written reports, but to Mr. Schreiber, yes. (Whoops x 2!)
Thibault (LPC): did you make notes of your progress?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Thibault (LPC): can you provide them to the cmte?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I can't provide them to the cmte today. (Whoops x 3!) It was some 14-15 yrs ago. I reported, for eg., in great detail, for almost an hour, in the presence of another person, w/Mr. Schreiber, in the Pierre Hotel in NY, about my visits to China, Russia and France. I referred about the summer of 1994, when I was invited by Yeltsin to Russia and we went there and I thought it was an excellent opportunity...(rambling)
Szabo (chair, LPC): (interrupting) Mr. Thibault, I'm going to give you another minute. Mr. Mulroney, the members will ask more details about the nature of the report at a later time, but I think that Mr. Thibault just wants the documents, any docs you may have...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I will be happy to provide any docs to the cmte, but perhaps my honourable friend (*snerk*) would be interested in this point, b/c he was asking about the reporting process and what I might have said...
Szabo (chair, LPC): I'm going to give you an opportunity to make a stmt, but not in the middle of the member's question...
***Del Mastro (CPC) asks for point of order***
Del Mastro (CPC): (complaining to Szabo) You took great leniency w/Mr. Schreiber in allowing him to elaborate on stmts and meander into dead ends all over the place...I think (BM) should be given that latitude. In the interest of fairness, I think the witness should be allowed to make his stmts.
Szabo (chair, LPC): (stammering a bit) the point is that if the flow of the member's questions is going to be interrupted by a stmt...
Del Mastro (CPC): he should be permitted the time to answer the question!
Szabo (chair, LPC): I agree...the question was "do you have notes and can we have them"
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: No, the question was, 'did you report to Mr. Schreiber?' and I said, "yes, I did," and I was explaining and I'm sure my honourable friend (*snerk*), but just to give you an idea of it, I reported to him in NY very fully on the contacts that I'd made, which involved a visit w/Yeltsin, knowing their requirements in Chechnya and elsewhere and whether they would be interested in discussing this w/me and moving this file along. Yeltsin said he knew this company well and thought highly of it. And I said, in that case, I thought why don't we move to the next step together, which was to the "P5" (UN permanent 5 members of the Sec. Council) and he said, "Brian, I'd love to but I have a problem; we're broke, we have no money," so as a result of that, I moved on, and looked for another prospect.
***loud laughter***
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (smiling at his own story) This was the kind of consultation I was doing around the world, w/Mitterand, w/China, w/the US government...
Szabo (chair, LPC): I will make sure you have all the time you need to elaborate--I'll ask at the end of each member's time-slot, so that it doesn't interrupt the flow of questions.
Thibault (LPC): When you received the money at the Hotel Pierre, did you bring that money back into Canada?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: No, I did not.
Thibault (LPC): Did you deposit it in the US?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Yes, I did.
Thibault (LPC): In your deposition, in lawsuit against gov Canada, on pg 98, question 276, you said you've never had a bank acct outside Montreal, and never have. How do you explain that?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: It was a safety deposit box. (Whoops x 4!)
Thibault (LPC): Not an acct? Ok, thank you. Mr. Mulroney, the allegations by KHS is that on Oct 17, 1999, your counsel (Tremblay) approached KHS's lawyer (Hladun) seeking an affidavit--indicating that at no time, did you, Mr. Mulroney, solicit or receive money from Mr. Schreiber. Is that correct?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: What is correct is that there was a discussion between counsel and on Jan 26, 2000 (will provide later), Mr. Schreiber's lawyer wrote in Edmonton--wrote to lawyer in Toronto, "I received a call from Mr. Mulroney, who advised that he instructed his lawyer (Tremblay) to issue a letter to CBC's "Fifth Estate," indicating if there's the slightest indication that Mr. Schreiber, Mr. Moores and Mr. Mulroney were involved in any way, then there would be terrible consequences," i.e. I assume as alleged in the letter of request. The only memorialisation that was being sought was, as Mr. Schreiber has now told you...
Thibault (LPC): the question is on Oct 17, 1999, did your counsel contact Mr. Schreiber's lawyer?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I contacted Mr. Hladun who was an excellent lawyer out in Edmonton, representing Mr. Schreiber, and he says the reason for the contact by me was, "I assume as alleged in the letter of request." (getting very irritated) He assumed that my call related to the allegations and the money that went through on the Airbus deal, from which I received not a cent. But sir, in the interest of completeness and accuracy for your important question (very sarcastically), from the same lawyer in 2005 on same issue, to the CBC:
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (angry but smiling oddly at Thibault) But sir, that's completely false! You can't throw that out there as a preparatory statement...
Thibault (LPC): I accept that as your comment. In the summer of 2006, you met w/PM Harper at Harrington Lake. Did you, w/Elmer MacKay, solicit a letter from Mr. Schreiber for that meeting?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: of course not (great umbrage at this question).
Thibault (LPC): did you discuss the wireless spectrum issue w/the PM at that time, or at any other time?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (laughing) I think the PM (Harper) has already responded in the HOC to that question. The answer, of course, is negative.
Thibault (LPC): this whole thing, you admit is an error...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I don't admit the whole thing was an error...
***assorted grumbling in the room***
Thibault (LPC): To accept the money, accept in cash, was an error...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Thibault (LPC): Canadians are asking that question. They remember a great debater, in Canadian politics, suggesting, "Sir, you had an option!" And you chose at Harrington Lake, to suggest to Mr. Schreiber that he could go back to you w/his dealings. Then you exercised the option to accept money--in cash--in a hotel room in Montreal. And then, in your deposition, you suggest that you were having coffee every now and then...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (interrupting, angry) That is not right, sir! (pointing at Thibault)
Thibault (LPC):...then you accept money in a hotel room, the Queen Elizabeth hotel, and then the Pierre Hotel (NYC), accepting money in cash...the question that remains: Is this the tip of an iceburg of a lot of money that flowed?
Szabo (chair, LPC): I'm going to allow Mr. Mulroney to respond to stmts.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Well, I hope we can come back to some of your preparatory remarks, that I hope I can persuade you that you've been seriously mislead. I don't have a clue what Mr. Schreiber did w/his money internationally. He came before you, and Mme. Lavallée had asked him questions w/o getting answers. She did everything--asked all kinds of questions about accuracy, the name of the lawyer, the amounts of money, the benefits--no answers were provided. Now you want to know from me how Mr. Schreiber conducted his business internationally?! Sir, I don't know anymore than Mme. Lavallée after her questioning. I'm sorry, I can't help you. (very indignant and pissy)
Coming up next: Part IV ("It was all very sophisticated"), or return to Part II ("I'll be on the couch, since you're already on the Cross")
Photo Credit: Solarnavigator.net
International Man of Mystery
9:35 AM
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you, Mr. Mulroney, for your stmt. (oops, problem w/the earpieces. Szabo is smiling and looking a bit nervous and fidgety about all of this) Just for clarification, twice during your stmt, you referred to leaving "public office," and questions have come up in our proceedings related to the timing of matters as related to stepping down as PM or as an MP. So, when you referred to "leaving public office," were you referring to being PM or when you left as an MP?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I was referring to stepping down as PM.
Szabo (chair, LPC): thank you, kindly. I understand, Mr. Mulroney, you would like to have a little break at this time. I accede to your request. Suspend now and resume at 9:50 AM.
9:53 AM
Thibault (LPC): I understand that, for you and your family, that these allegations would be very difficult. But understand that you are here today b/c you received $300K in cash, and that leaves a lot of questions in peoples' minds. One of the questions that I have--remaining questions--and even Mr. Schreiber said there was no money related to Airbus. But what happened to all these commissions by MBB, by Airbus in Canada? If not to you, then to people close to your gov, and we must continue to explore this question. I think we need an inquiry. Your work for Thyssen, after you left the position of PM--you said you were working for Thyssen on "international" matters and not domestic?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: that's correct.
Thibault (LPC): the two subsequent payments of $100K you received while you were working at the law firm?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes.
Thibault (LPC): did the payments go through the law firm or to you directly?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I should say, Mr. Chairman, before Mr. Thibault goes any further, that I want to indicate formally--which I indicated the only other time I discussed this on the record in the G&M on 10 November 2003--I was asked and I indicated that I had been compensated in cash for the transaction, but as I told the G&M, was that there was a dispute about the amount. It was 75K per year for 3 yrs work-total of $225K.
Thibault (LPC): did the money go through the law firm, the two subsequent amounts?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: they didn't go through the law firm (Whoops!)
Thibault (LPC): thank you...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (annoyed) No, just a minute! I negotiated a provision w/the law firm that would allow me to deal with this kind of matter in the manner that I did. It was an exception...
Thibault (LPC): thank you
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: it was a single exception to the partnership rule.
Thibault (LPC): thank you, I appreciate your brevity. You were working for Thyssen internationally--did you report to Thyssen on the work that you did, either in written reports to Thyssen or to Mr. S?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: not in written reports, but to Mr. Schreiber, yes. (Whoops x 2!)
Thibault (LPC): did you make notes of your progress?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Thibault (LPC): can you provide them to the cmte?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I can't provide them to the cmte today. (Whoops x 3!) It was some 14-15 yrs ago. I reported, for eg., in great detail, for almost an hour, in the presence of another person, w/Mr. Schreiber, in the Pierre Hotel in NY, about my visits to China, Russia and France. I referred about the summer of 1994, when I was invited by Yeltsin to Russia and we went there and I thought it was an excellent opportunity...(rambling)
Szabo (chair, LPC): (interrupting) Mr. Thibault, I'm going to give you another minute. Mr. Mulroney, the members will ask more details about the nature of the report at a later time, but I think that Mr. Thibault just wants the documents, any docs you may have...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I will be happy to provide any docs to the cmte, but perhaps my honourable friend (*snerk*) would be interested in this point, b/c he was asking about the reporting process and what I might have said...
Szabo (chair, LPC): I'm going to give you an opportunity to make a stmt, but not in the middle of the member's question...
***Del Mastro (CPC) asks for point of order***
Del Mastro (CPC): (complaining to Szabo) You took great leniency w/Mr. Schreiber in allowing him to elaborate on stmts and meander into dead ends all over the place...I think (BM) should be given that latitude. In the interest of fairness, I think the witness should be allowed to make his stmts.
Szabo (chair, LPC): (stammering a bit) the point is that if the flow of the member's questions is going to be interrupted by a stmt...
Del Mastro (CPC): he should be permitted the time to answer the question!
Szabo (chair, LPC): I agree...the question was "do you have notes and can we have them"
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: No, the question was, 'did you report to Mr. Schreiber?' and I said, "yes, I did," and I was explaining and I'm sure my honourable friend (*snerk*), but just to give you an idea of it, I reported to him in NY very fully on the contacts that I'd made, which involved a visit w/Yeltsin, knowing their requirements in Chechnya and elsewhere and whether they would be interested in discussing this w/me and moving this file along. Yeltsin said he knew this company well and thought highly of it. And I said, in that case, I thought why don't we move to the next step together, which was to the "P5" (UN permanent 5 members of the Sec. Council) and he said, "Brian, I'd love to but I have a problem; we're broke, we have no money," so as a result of that, I moved on, and looked for another prospect.
***loud laughter***
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (smiling at his own story) This was the kind of consultation I was doing around the world, w/Mitterand, w/China, w/the US government...
Szabo (chair, LPC): I will make sure you have all the time you need to elaborate--I'll ask at the end of each member's time-slot, so that it doesn't interrupt the flow of questions.
Thibault (LPC): When you received the money at the Hotel Pierre, did you bring that money back into Canada?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: No, I did not.
Thibault (LPC): Did you deposit it in the US?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Yes, I did.
Thibault (LPC): In your deposition, in lawsuit against gov Canada, on pg 98, question 276, you said you've never had a bank acct outside Montreal, and never have. How do you explain that?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: It was a safety deposit box. (Whoops x 4!)
Thibault (LPC): Not an acct? Ok, thank you. Mr. Mulroney, the allegations by KHS is that on Oct 17, 1999, your counsel (Tremblay) approached KHS's lawyer (Hladun) seeking an affidavit--indicating that at no time, did you, Mr. Mulroney, solicit or receive money from Mr. Schreiber. Is that correct?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: What is correct is that there was a discussion between counsel and on Jan 26, 2000 (will provide later), Mr. Schreiber's lawyer wrote in Edmonton--wrote to lawyer in Toronto, "I received a call from Mr. Mulroney, who advised that he instructed his lawyer (Tremblay) to issue a letter to CBC's "Fifth Estate," indicating if there's the slightest indication that Mr. Schreiber, Mr. Moores and Mr. Mulroney were involved in any way, then there would be terrible consequences," i.e. I assume as alleged in the letter of request. The only memorialisation that was being sought was, as Mr. Schreiber has now told you...
Thibault (LPC): the question is on Oct 17, 1999, did your counsel contact Mr. Schreiber's lawyer?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I contacted Mr. Hladun who was an excellent lawyer out in Edmonton, representing Mr. Schreiber, and he says the reason for the contact by me was, "I assume as alleged in the letter of request." (getting very irritated) He assumed that my call related to the allegations and the money that went through on the Airbus deal, from which I received not a cent. But sir, in the interest of completeness and accuracy for your important question (very sarcastically), from the same lawyer in 2005 on same issue, to the CBC:
I have learned that the CBC has referenced that they have evidence that the writer, Mr. Hladun, asked to have Mr. Schreiber provide a letter to Mr. M that, quote, "at no time did Mr. Mulroney solicit or receive compensation of any kind from Mr. KHS." First off, to my mind, there's no such evidence b/c I've never had a conversation w/BM about compensation. The only conversations I've had w/anyone were in the context of and limited to the allegations of improper payments made as referenced in the Sept 1995 letter of request delivered by the Canadian gov to the Swiss authorities in what became known as the Airbus...Thibault (LPC): the suggestion here would have been that--this would have come from the Thyssen money, the 300K, you argue that it's 225K, but that amount of money, and subsequent to that conversation, you would have made your declaration...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (angry but smiling oddly at Thibault) But sir, that's completely false! You can't throw that out there as a preparatory statement...
Thibault (LPC): I accept that as your comment. In the summer of 2006, you met w/PM Harper at Harrington Lake. Did you, w/Elmer MacKay, solicit a letter from Mr. Schreiber for that meeting?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: of course not (great umbrage at this question).
Thibault (LPC): did you discuss the wireless spectrum issue w/the PM at that time, or at any other time?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (laughing) I think the PM (Harper) has already responded in the HOC to that question. The answer, of course, is negative.
Thibault (LPC): this whole thing, you admit is an error...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I don't admit the whole thing was an error...
***assorted grumbling in the room***
Thibault (LPC): To accept the money, accept in cash, was an error...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes
Thibault (LPC): Canadians are asking that question. They remember a great debater, in Canadian politics, suggesting, "Sir, you had an option!" And you chose at Harrington Lake, to suggest to Mr. Schreiber that he could go back to you w/his dealings. Then you exercised the option to accept money--in cash--in a hotel room in Montreal. And then, in your deposition, you suggest that you were having coffee every now and then...
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: (interrupting, angry) That is not right, sir! (pointing at Thibault)
Thibault (LPC):...then you accept money in a hotel room, the Queen Elizabeth hotel, and then the Pierre Hotel (NYC), accepting money in cash...the question that remains: Is this the tip of an iceburg of a lot of money that flowed?
Szabo (chair, LPC): I'm going to allow Mr. Mulroney to respond to stmts.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Well, I hope we can come back to some of your preparatory remarks, that I hope I can persuade you that you've been seriously mislead. I don't have a clue what Mr. Schreiber did w/his money internationally. He came before you, and Mme. Lavallée had asked him questions w/o getting answers. She did everything--asked all kinds of questions about accuracy, the name of the lawyer, the amounts of money, the benefits--no answers were provided. Now you want to know from me how Mr. Schreiber conducted his business internationally?! Sir, I don't know anymore than Mme. Lavallée after her questioning. I'm sorry, I can't help you. (very indignant and pissy)
Coming up next: Part IV ("It was all very sophisticated"), or return to Part II ("I'll be on the couch, since you're already on the Cross")
Photo Credit: Solarnavigator.net
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