The Right Honourable Brian Mulroney (or "BM," as I've come to know him) presented himself to the Commons Ethics committee for an exhausting 3 1/2 hours on Thursday. As with the Schreiber testimony (Nov 29, Dec 4, Dec 6, and Dec 11) the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
A perfectly legitimate businessman
10:35 AM
Hiebert (CPC): Mr. Mulroney, thank you for being here. Today you've spoken to the nation and answered some questions that have been lingering on the minds of Canadians for years. However, that does not change the fact that the public trust has been broken. What we've been told has cast a shadow over the institution of gov. This cmte has sought to shed light on your actions. Now, Canadians understand that the PM is just a person, but Canadians also expect that person to reflect the dignity of high-office. Even if, at the end of the day, no code or law was broken, even the appearance of wrongdoing is a problem. Canadians want to know what happened so that we can put this saga behind us. First: about the cash, Mr. Mulroney, when you received the first payment, were you still a MP?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes, I was. And that is, as you know, not a violation of the HOC act.
Hiebert (CPC): you've told this cmte that you declared money as income, but you also indicated that some was used for expenses.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: partially, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): so did you declare all the money as income, or some, b/c some was expenses
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: all of it sir, and I absorbed the money I used for expenses. Filed for the full amount and paid full tax on it.
Hiebert (CPC): when Mr. Schreiber provided that money, did you give him a kind of receipt?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I didn't, in fact, he didn't even indicate to me---he told a newspaper that, when he gave it to me, that I had no idea what the amount was or the denominations were--and he told someone else on TV that he's a European businessman and that's how transactions were done...and that's essentially what he told me, so I had no idea. (Whoops!)
Hiebert (CPC): did Mr. Schreiber tell you what the source of the cash was?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no
Hiebert (CPC): you had no idea where the money was from?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, now Mr. Hiebert (in schoolteacher voice to the young whippersnapper), as I tried to indicate, it's easy to look back 15 yrs later at a KHS or anybody else and--you have to look back 15 yrs and see the gentleman I was meeting. I was meeting the chairman of Thyssen Canada (KHS) who had 3000 employees in Canada, as a part of Thyssen Industries, which had 180 000 employees world-wide. And Mr. Schreiber was promoting an entirely legitimate project in eastern Nova Scotia, and that's the way I knew him, as a perfectly legitimate businessman. And so when I met w/him, I met the KHS of 1993, not the KHS of today.
Hiebert (CPC): Mr. Mulroney, the following questions relate to the 1985 Code of Conduct for Employees that you personally put in place as PM. My first question: did you ever violate the 1985 code?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir
Hiebert (CPC): did Mr. Schreiber ever offer you employment?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: while I was in office? No sir.
Hiebert (CPC): after stepping down as PM, did you ever have an agreement w/Mr. Schreiber? That you would work for him in connection w/any "specific ongoing proceeding, transaction, negotiation or case, to which the Government of the day was a party" (quoting directly from the 1985 Code)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Mr. Hiebert, that's a very important question, and if you'll allow me, I'd like to respond through the words of Mr. Schreiber himself. Mr. Schreiber testified in the MBB helicopter (Eurocopter) case, under oath, here' s the question from Mr. Bernstein, "those thoughts, that idea that you had, this plan (to retain the services of Mr. M), what time are we talking about?" Mr. S: "after Mr. M has left gov" Bernstein: "after he had ceased? After he had stepped down as PM?" Mr. S: "yes. Yeah." Under oath (pointing at Hiebert), Mr. Schreiber repeats the same provision under oath, within a stone's throw of this room (pointing around the room now, dramatically), in 2004, in the affidavit that he filed on the 7th of Nov (2007) that gave rise to this activity. He's saying, under oath, that he hired me only after I was no longer PM. In the affidavit he filed, he said the exact opposite, that it took place 23 June at Harrington Lake. I told you, sir, that every single allegation Mr. Schreiber made about me in that affidavit (7 Nov 2007) is false. And, w/your permission, I'd like to go through every single allegation w/you and indicate the extent to which these falsehoods are now on your record, unchallenged.
Hiebert (CPC): after you stepped down as PM, did Mr. Schreiber ask you to contact any member of fed gov on his behalf?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): after you stepped down as PM, did Mr. Schreiber ever ask you to advise him on how his business could benefit from the programs of the fed gov at the time?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): Mr. Mulroney, there's been some questions about your activity after you stepped down as PM, but while you were still a MP. I'm now referring to the provisions of the Parliament of Canada--you indicated that you accepted some amount of money while you were still sitting as an MP. Did you render any services to Mr. Schreiber in relation to any bill, proceeding, contract, claim, controversy, charge, accusation, arrest, or other matter before parliament?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): did you influence, or attempt to influence, on behalf of Mr. Schreiber or any other of his interests, any other MP as you were sitting as a MP?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): Mr. Chairman, I think it's clear that Mr. Schreiber is desperate to avoid facing extradition to Germany. He's testified to the (number of cases he has before the courts). And PM Harper has stated that he never met KHS and Schreiber confirmed that in his own testimony. Mr. Mulroney, Mr. Schreiber hoped, undoubtedly, that you could advocate on his behalf, to PMS, to help him w/his extradition problems. Mr. Schreiber indicated that he believed that you were going to raise this issue w/PM Harper last summer. PM Harper has stated that he has never discussed this matter w/you. Mr. Mulroney, could you tell the cmte if you ever raised this subject w/the current PM, and if you did not, why not?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: PM Harper is completely accurate. Moreover, he has had nothing to do directly or indirectly w/any aspect of this, in any way. I did not raise, directly or indirectly, w/PM Harper or any member of the HOC on any side. Mr. Hiebert, let me just read this, I've told you the falsity of Mr. Schreiber's stmts in his affidavit. He repudiated his own testimony, under oath. Here's another article from his affidavit, section 39: "I wrote the July 20, 2006 at the request of Mr. Mulroney, b/c he told me that he was going to meet PM Harper and that Mr. Mulroney was going to show PM Harper a copy of Exhibit 15." I have not spoken to Mr. Schreiber in 7 years. That's a complete fabrication, and it's an example from this affidavit that has generated this feeding frenzy ...Look, he succeeded! He got what he wanted! (*smiling and gesturing expansively*) He's sitting in his mansion over in Rockcliffe, chuckling. He organized this 7 Nov affidavit and it's all false! But he got his "Get out of Jail" card, and he's sitting over there, and he got what he wanted. But one thing that he did do, is that he seriously mislead every member of this House. And it is false. And how do we know it's false? Because he repudiated it, every single provision of it, in different testimonies given under oath! (very red faced)
Del Mastro (CPC): Point of order, Mr. Chair! You extended the invitation to the witness that, if he would like to make a stmt (or clarify) at any time, that he could. The witness has indicated that he'd like to go through the affidavit of 7 Nov and I'd like to request to the chair, if he would like to do that, it's very relevant. I'd like you to extend that offer.
Szabo (chair, LPC): if it's germane and relevant and, you feel it would be helpful, Mr. Mulroney...
***grumbling***
Szabo (chair, LPC): just a moment, just a moment...I want to make sure, b/c I'm also contemplating our next session of break. How long would it be? 5 min 10 min?
10:49 AM
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: max. I can be very brief. I won't go through the entire affidavit, but let me draw to your attention, something that should be persuasive to all of you, regardless of political party, the quest for the truth, then those that appear before you must respect you by telling you the truth with respect to everything, even, sir, if it's embarrassing, as it's been for me, to acknowledge accepting money from Mr. Schreiber.
Szabo (chair, LPC): just with respect to one of the responses to Mr. Hiebert, you said: "accepting money while you were a MP was not in violation of "the HOC act?" Were you, in fact, referring to the "Parliament of Canada Act?"
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I'm sorry, sir, yes.
Szabo (chair, LPC): Ok, and that was with respect to Section 41 under "Influence Peddling." Thank you. If you wish, is this an appropriate time for you to make your comments? Please proceed.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: in the 7 Nov affidavit, at Section 15, Mr. Schreiber swears under oath, that it was at this meeting that Mr. Mulroney and I entered the agreement on 23 June 1993, Mr. Mulroney was still in office as PM of Canada and consequently resided at 24 Sussex. So the thrust of it is, June 93, I'm still PM, and, according to him, we make a deal at Harrington Lake. Mr. Schreiber also filed another affidavit. In another trial. Dealing w/his extradition, before another court, same year, 8 months before he filed the false 7 Nov affidavit. Filed before the Fed Court of Canada, discussing his testimony in Eurocopter trial, he takes great pride that, Mr. Justice Paul Boulanger (sp??) examined his testimony very carefully and declared he was not a hostile witness. And that's b/c Mr. Bernstein had sought to have him declared a hostile witness, saying he wasn't telling the truth. But Justice Boulanger disagreed and said Schreiber was telling the truth. In the Eurocopter case, Mr. Schreiber was telling the truth. And Mr. Schreiber was so proud of that, that in his other affidavit from March this Year, 8 months before he gave you the phony affidavit (the 'Get out of Jail' affidavit), he says Judge Boulanger agreed every word he said in Eurocopter case was true. And what did he say in the Eurocopter case? Question: "these thoughts, these ideas you had to hire Mr. Mulroney? What time are we talking about?" Schreiber's Answer: "after Mr. Mulroney had left government" (Mulroney very animated and red-faced again). Question: "after he had ceased, after he had stepped down as PM?" Schreiber's Answer: "Yes, Yeah."
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: In Eurocopter, he says this under oath (holding it up), so proud of it, he repeats it in his March 2007 affidavit. Eight months later, in his November affidavit--his Get out of Jail affidavit--he says exactly the opposite! That he made a deal w/me on 23 June 1993 in Harrington Lake. Which one is perjury? Is it the one under oath, March 3, 2007? Or is it the one under oath in a court room in Toronto, November 7. At no time, directly or indirectly was the matter of anything that dealt w/employment raised by Schreiber to me while I was PM. And this (Eurocopter testimony) was made just a stone's throw away from here. And he didn't file this one, did he? You don't have this one. I think you should take a look at it. It's interesting.
Coming up next: Part VII ("The Conservative Godfather v. The Johnny Come Lately"), or return to Part V ("Winnipeg in January? Now, that's downright nutty!")
Picture of Fat Tony (The Simpsons): Answers.com
A perfectly legitimate businessman
10:35 AM
Hiebert (CPC): Mr. Mulroney, thank you for being here. Today you've spoken to the nation and answered some questions that have been lingering on the minds of Canadians for years. However, that does not change the fact that the public trust has been broken. What we've been told has cast a shadow over the institution of gov. This cmte has sought to shed light on your actions. Now, Canadians understand that the PM is just a person, but Canadians also expect that person to reflect the dignity of high-office. Even if, at the end of the day, no code or law was broken, even the appearance of wrongdoing is a problem. Canadians want to know what happened so that we can put this saga behind us. First: about the cash, Mr. Mulroney, when you received the first payment, were you still a MP?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: yes, I was. And that is, as you know, not a violation of the HOC act.
Hiebert (CPC): you've told this cmte that you declared money as income, but you also indicated that some was used for expenses.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: partially, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): so did you declare all the money as income, or some, b/c some was expenses
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: all of it sir, and I absorbed the money I used for expenses. Filed for the full amount and paid full tax on it.
Hiebert (CPC): when Mr. Schreiber provided that money, did you give him a kind of receipt?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, I didn't, in fact, he didn't even indicate to me---he told a newspaper that, when he gave it to me, that I had no idea what the amount was or the denominations were--and he told someone else on TV that he's a European businessman and that's how transactions were done...and that's essentially what he told me, so I had no idea. (Whoops!)
Hiebert (CPC): did Mr. Schreiber tell you what the source of the cash was?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no
Hiebert (CPC): you had no idea where the money was from?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, now Mr. Hiebert (in schoolteacher voice to the young whippersnapper), as I tried to indicate, it's easy to look back 15 yrs later at a KHS or anybody else and--you have to look back 15 yrs and see the gentleman I was meeting. I was meeting the chairman of Thyssen Canada (KHS) who had 3000 employees in Canada, as a part of Thyssen Industries, which had 180 000 employees world-wide. And Mr. Schreiber was promoting an entirely legitimate project in eastern Nova Scotia, and that's the way I knew him, as a perfectly legitimate businessman. And so when I met w/him, I met the KHS of 1993, not the KHS of today.
Hiebert (CPC): Mr. Mulroney, the following questions relate to the 1985 Code of Conduct for Employees that you personally put in place as PM. My first question: did you ever violate the 1985 code?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir
Hiebert (CPC): did Mr. Schreiber ever offer you employment?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: while I was in office? No sir.
Hiebert (CPC): after stepping down as PM, did you ever have an agreement w/Mr. Schreiber? That you would work for him in connection w/any "specific ongoing proceeding, transaction, negotiation or case, to which the Government of the day was a party" (quoting directly from the 1985 Code)
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: Mr. Hiebert, that's a very important question, and if you'll allow me, I'd like to respond through the words of Mr. Schreiber himself. Mr. Schreiber testified in the MBB helicopter (Eurocopter) case, under oath, here' s the question from Mr. Bernstein, "those thoughts, that idea that you had, this plan (to retain the services of Mr. M), what time are we talking about?" Mr. S: "after Mr. M has left gov" Bernstein: "after he had ceased? After he had stepped down as PM?" Mr. S: "yes. Yeah." Under oath (pointing at Hiebert), Mr. Schreiber repeats the same provision under oath, within a stone's throw of this room (pointing around the room now, dramatically), in 2004, in the affidavit that he filed on the 7th of Nov (2007) that gave rise to this activity. He's saying, under oath, that he hired me only after I was no longer PM. In the affidavit he filed, he said the exact opposite, that it took place 23 June at Harrington Lake. I told you, sir, that every single allegation Mr. Schreiber made about me in that affidavit (7 Nov 2007) is false. And, w/your permission, I'd like to go through every single allegation w/you and indicate the extent to which these falsehoods are now on your record, unchallenged.
Hiebert (CPC): after you stepped down as PM, did Mr. Schreiber ask you to contact any member of fed gov on his behalf?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): after you stepped down as PM, did Mr. Schreiber ever ask you to advise him on how his business could benefit from the programs of the fed gov at the time?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): Mr. Mulroney, there's been some questions about your activity after you stepped down as PM, but while you were still a MP. I'm now referring to the provisions of the Parliament of Canada--you indicated that you accepted some amount of money while you were still sitting as an MP. Did you render any services to Mr. Schreiber in relation to any bill, proceeding, contract, claim, controversy, charge, accusation, arrest, or other matter before parliament?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): did you influence, or attempt to influence, on behalf of Mr. Schreiber or any other of his interests, any other MP as you were sitting as a MP?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: no, sir.
Hiebert (CPC): Mr. Chairman, I think it's clear that Mr. Schreiber is desperate to avoid facing extradition to Germany. He's testified to the (number of cases he has before the courts). And PM Harper has stated that he never met KHS and Schreiber confirmed that in his own testimony. Mr. Mulroney, Mr. Schreiber hoped, undoubtedly, that you could advocate on his behalf, to PMS, to help him w/his extradition problems. Mr. Schreiber indicated that he believed that you were going to raise this issue w/PM Harper last summer. PM Harper has stated that he has never discussed this matter w/you. Mr. Mulroney, could you tell the cmte if you ever raised this subject w/the current PM, and if you did not, why not?
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: PM Harper is completely accurate. Moreover, he has had nothing to do directly or indirectly w/any aspect of this, in any way. I did not raise, directly or indirectly, w/PM Harper or any member of the HOC on any side. Mr. Hiebert, let me just read this, I've told you the falsity of Mr. Schreiber's stmts in his affidavit. He repudiated his own testimony, under oath. Here's another article from his affidavit, section 39: "I wrote the July 20, 2006 at the request of Mr. Mulroney, b/c he told me that he was going to meet PM Harper and that Mr. Mulroney was going to show PM Harper a copy of Exhibit 15." I have not spoken to Mr. Schreiber in 7 years. That's a complete fabrication, and it's an example from this affidavit that has generated this feeding frenzy ...Look, he succeeded! He got what he wanted! (*smiling and gesturing expansively*) He's sitting in his mansion over in Rockcliffe, chuckling. He organized this 7 Nov affidavit and it's all false! But he got his "Get out of Jail" card, and he's sitting over there, and he got what he wanted. But one thing that he did do, is that he seriously mislead every member of this House. And it is false. And how do we know it's false? Because he repudiated it, every single provision of it, in different testimonies given under oath! (very red faced)
Del Mastro (CPC): Point of order, Mr. Chair! You extended the invitation to the witness that, if he would like to make a stmt (or clarify) at any time, that he could. The witness has indicated that he'd like to go through the affidavit of 7 Nov and I'd like to request to the chair, if he would like to do that, it's very relevant. I'd like you to extend that offer.
Szabo (chair, LPC): if it's germane and relevant and, you feel it would be helpful, Mr. Mulroney...
***grumbling***
Szabo (chair, LPC): just a moment, just a moment...I want to make sure, b/c I'm also contemplating our next session of break. How long would it be? 5 min 10 min?
10:49 AM
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: max. I can be very brief. I won't go through the entire affidavit, but let me draw to your attention, something that should be persuasive to all of you, regardless of political party, the quest for the truth, then those that appear before you must respect you by telling you the truth with respect to everything, even, sir, if it's embarrassing, as it's been for me, to acknowledge accepting money from Mr. Schreiber.
Szabo (chair, LPC): just with respect to one of the responses to Mr. Hiebert, you said: "accepting money while you were a MP was not in violation of "the HOC act?" Were you, in fact, referring to the "Parliament of Canada Act?"
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: I'm sorry, sir, yes.
Szabo (chair, LPC): Ok, and that was with respect to Section 41 under "Influence Peddling." Thank you. If you wish, is this an appropriate time for you to make your comments? Please proceed.
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: in the 7 Nov affidavit, at Section 15, Mr. Schreiber swears under oath, that it was at this meeting that Mr. Mulroney and I entered the agreement on 23 June 1993, Mr. Mulroney was still in office as PM of Canada and consequently resided at 24 Sussex. So the thrust of it is, June 93, I'm still PM, and, according to him, we make a deal at Harrington Lake. Mr. Schreiber also filed another affidavit. In another trial. Dealing w/his extradition, before another court, same year, 8 months before he filed the false 7 Nov affidavit. Filed before the Fed Court of Canada, discussing his testimony in Eurocopter trial, he takes great pride that, Mr. Justice Paul Boulanger (sp??) examined his testimony very carefully and declared he was not a hostile witness. And that's b/c Mr. Bernstein had sought to have him declared a hostile witness, saying he wasn't telling the truth. But Justice Boulanger disagreed and said Schreiber was telling the truth. In the Eurocopter case, Mr. Schreiber was telling the truth. And Mr. Schreiber was so proud of that, that in his other affidavit from March this Year, 8 months before he gave you the phony affidavit (the 'Get out of Jail' affidavit), he says Judge Boulanger agreed every word he said in Eurocopter case was true. And what did he say in the Eurocopter case? Question: "these thoughts, these ideas you had to hire Mr. Mulroney? What time are we talking about?" Schreiber's Answer: "after Mr. Mulroney had left government" (Mulroney very animated and red-faced again). Question: "after he had ceased, after he had stepped down as PM?" Schreiber's Answer: "Yes, Yeah."
Rt. Hon. B. Mulroney: In Eurocopter, he says this under oath (holding it up), so proud of it, he repeats it in his March 2007 affidavit. Eight months later, in his November affidavit--his Get out of Jail affidavit--he says exactly the opposite! That he made a deal w/me on 23 June 1993 in Harrington Lake. Which one is perjury? Is it the one under oath, March 3, 2007? Or is it the one under oath in a court room in Toronto, November 7. At no time, directly or indirectly was the matter of anything that dealt w/employment raised by Schreiber to me while I was PM. And this (Eurocopter testimony) was made just a stone's throw away from here. And he didn't file this one, did he? You don't have this one. I think you should take a look at it. It's interesting.
Coming up next: Part VII ("The Conservative Godfather v. The Johnny Come Lately"), or return to Part V ("Winnipeg in January? Now, that's downright nutty!")
Picture of Fat Tony (The Simpsons): Answers.com
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