Former Mulroney Dep. Chief of Staff and PR flack Communications Director Luc Lavoie presented himself to the Commons Ethics committee on February 7. The following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. To return to the beginning of this series, click here: Part I.
Why would an advisor give bad advice?
3:41 PM
Ménard (BQ): I was looking at your CV and seen you often on TV. I can consider you one of the best communicators for a firm. Experience on TV. I imagine you were hired to give BM advice on PR...
Luc Lavoie: you're saying that?
Ménard (BQ): asking the question--one of your duties was to advise him?
Luc Lavoie: yes
Ménard (BQ): in spring 2000, first time you found out BM received money from KHS
Luc Lavoie: that's right
Ménard (BQ): but in 99, when you said BM never got any money, there was never any money, at that point you didn't know he received money from KHS? (note: listen to interview, scroll down to "October 8, 1999")
Luc Lavoie: I didn't know, but I'd remind you that that conversation, in my mind, very clearly had to do w/Airbus (AB), MBB, and Bear Head Project (BHP), but you're right, I was not aware
Ménard (BQ): you saw that the issue wasn't dying out, even after settlement. Still suspicions that KHS had given BM money. I'm sure you noticed (*snerk*). You were no doubt aware of the RCMP letter sent to Swiss authorities in which...
Luc Lavoie: yes, I know it by heart (smiling)
Ménard (BQ): not surprised. So...when lawyers spoke in spring 2000, he said there was a cash retainer, 3 payments of "tens of thousands of dollars," you say. It seems like that would be interpreted in the range of ~50K, but you came up to 100K
Luc Lavoie: no. Tens of thousands...the 300K figure is the one that appeared in the G&M
Ménard (BQ): so you WEREN'T the one who said there was a payment of 100K?
Luc Lavoie: said that last fall, but first time figures put forward was in the article by William Kaplan in the G&M
Ménard (BQ): and the first time you realized BM said it was 75K, did you find out at the same time as we did?
Luc Lavoie: no, a little before that. A few weeks before that.
Ménard (BQ): I imagine you understood, as of the moment BM received cash from KHS, in cash, that if that were known, some would think that would be confirmation of what was in the RCMP's letter. But, as far as you were concerned, there was another reason for payments...
Luc Lavoie: you're referring to RCMP LOR (letter of request), I would just say we should remember that that LOR referred to a Swiss bank acct, code name "DEVON," and ...
Ménard (BQ): but there was also the "BRITAIN" acct...
Luc Lavoie: there were 5Mill dollars deposited, kickbacks on sale of AB to Air Canada and these MBB helicopters to coast guard and so-called BHP. Put things in proper context: money paid for retainer? This money paid after he left office, for different work, no connection...nothing to do with this matter.
Ménard (BQ): perfectly legit transaction? That explained basis of some rumours that were going around...
Luc Lavoie: I wouldn't speculate on that
Ménard (BQ): Why, then, did you not advise him to say publicly, that that transaction w/KHS had taken place or to advise BM to explain right away, particularly w/rumours out there. Why not say that it was for legit work (and dispel rumours)?
Luc Lavoie: Well, I've had many, many conversations w/him and wouldn't say that I never advised that. That was considered.
Ménard (BQ): when did you find out that BM had kept it in 1000$ bills, here, when he testified to this committee? Do you think that would have been tougher to explain?
Luc Lavoie: I'm sorry, could you clarify?
Ménard (BQ): it looks suspicious. Makes relationship look fishy. You must have understood that. A PM getting cash in 1000$ bills in envelope. He keeps it in a safety deposit box for years...don't you think it makes things look even stranger?
Luc Lavoie: not really
Ménard (BQ): but you don't know what he did w/cash?
Luc Lavoie: no, I don't know what he did w/his own business.
3:49 PM
Martin (NDP): You were instrumental in helping BM win 2.1 mill libel suit against gov. In settlement reached, roughly 1.4 mill went to lawyers and $587 721 went to your firm, "National Public Relations"
Luc Lavoie: no, the money wasn't to me, it went to HIM. Money adjudicated by arbitration process lead by the late Allan Gold
Martin (NDP): correct. So the 587K+ worth of PR, specific to your time as communications Director, from 1995 onwards (i.e. not to Lavoie's time in PMO). Now, a lot of Canadians want to recoup that 2.1 mill. To earn that amount (587K), you must have been quite helpful to him...BM talked about that period being very difficult for him. Did you never ask him, "If I'm gonna represent you, Brian, did you or did you not accept money from KHS? It's gonna be integral to my convincing Canadians," did you not ask him that, at any time?
Luc Lavoie: uh...not exactly. I ask a question the day he contacted me, Mon, Nov 13, 1995. I was in Ottawa, he asked me to come to Montreal to see him. I met him the following morning at his home. He told me what he was faced w/, this LOR. I asked him if there was any truth to the LOR, and he said, "Absolutely not."
Martin (NDP): so YOU weren't lying to the people of Canada. He was lying to YOU.
Luc Lavoie: there was no truth to what was in that LOR
Martin (NDP): We paid him 2.1 mill b/c it was alleged that KHS gave him money, and now that we know that he did...
Luc Lavoie: (interrupting) no...
Martin (NDP): that's an extraordinary thing.
Luc Lavoie: I don't agree with what you said, by the way...
3:52 PM
Mulcair (NDP): thank you. You spoke about a lawyer who said BM received money. The one that spoke to you in 2000...
Luc Lavoie: Gérald Tremblay
Mulcair (NDP): you used the word, "retainer." Do you remember whether conversation took place in English or French?
Luc Lavoie: French
Mulcair (NDP): and he used the word, "retainer?" This is a word that is rarely used outside of the language, except in legal language. I think BM was already an associate in law firm in Montreal. Was he working as a lawyer for this retainer?
Luc Lavoie: maybe yes, maybe no, but I was in PR and we also had retainers.
Mulcair (NDP): but you would have still had to explain why he received these 100s of thousands of dollars. You had to have asked what it was for...
Luc Lavoie: the question wasn't about that. The reason M Tremblay called was b/c I was being sued by KHS for defamation, slander, and it was clear I needed that info
Mulcair (NDP): and you, M Lavoie, what did YOU understand that BM had done for these retainers?
Luc Lavoie: I understood that he took retainer to represent those firms
Mulcair (NDP): that's what you understood then? The purposes of representation?
Luc Lavoie: yes.
Mulcair (NDP): BM told us that he kept CANADIAN 1000$ bills (cash) in US, in a sdb. Can you explain that? What expenses can be paid in the States w/Canadian 1000$ bills?
Luc Lavoie: I wasn't involved, so I can't answer
Mulcair (NDP): it's your former boss who can tell us? I'm going to come back to Thibault's and Ménard's question, b/c I'm still not convinced by your answer. You're the spokesperson for the former PM and you're hired to give his version of facts and you're doing it very well. You went before cameras in fall 97 and said (three times!) "100K." I'm seeking, in vain, where BM contradicted you publicly, and I can't find it, except when he came before us and told us it was 3 X 75K, instead. Given your expertise in PR, why is it that as soon as you mentioned 100K, why you didn't immediately correct yourself?
Luc Lavoie: I would like to correct you: I didn't speak before the cameras
Mulcair (NDP): but you said it publicly. You say you have no answer to give me?
Luc Lavoie: I'm not refusing to answer. I don't HAVE an answer.
Mulcair (NDP): you said 300K. Mr. M is your client. Did he contact you right away and say, "hey, Lavoie, it's not 300K." Did he call you to ask you to retract?
Luc Lavoie: he called that evening
Mulcair (NDP): why didn't you correct stmt?
Luc Lavoie: in the media climate at time, everything was blown out of proportion. Unbelievable. It was better, rightly or wrongly, and agreed that he would come here and testify to the facts.
Coming up next: Part III ("I know you're no stranger to profanity..."), or return to Part I ("Luc & Brian, BFF")
"Can we talk" pic courtesy of this marketing wiz-cum-blogger
Ménard (BQ): I was looking at your CV and seen you often on TV. I can consider you one of the best communicators for a firm. Experience on TV. I imagine you were hired to give BM advice on PR...
Luc Lavoie: you're saying that?
Ménard (BQ): asking the question--one of your duties was to advise him?
Luc Lavoie: yes
Ménard (BQ): in spring 2000, first time you found out BM received money from KHS
Luc Lavoie: that's right
Ménard (BQ): but in 99, when you said BM never got any money, there was never any money, at that point you didn't know he received money from KHS? (note: listen to interview, scroll down to "October 8, 1999")
Luc Lavoie: I didn't know, but I'd remind you that that conversation, in my mind, very clearly had to do w/Airbus (AB), MBB, and Bear Head Project (BHP), but you're right, I was not aware
Ménard (BQ): you saw that the issue wasn't dying out, even after settlement. Still suspicions that KHS had given BM money. I'm sure you noticed (*snerk*). You were no doubt aware of the RCMP letter sent to Swiss authorities in which...
Luc Lavoie: yes, I know it by heart (smiling)
Ménard (BQ): not surprised. So...when lawyers spoke in spring 2000, he said there was a cash retainer, 3 payments of "tens of thousands of dollars," you say. It seems like that would be interpreted in the range of ~50K, but you came up to 100K
Luc Lavoie: no. Tens of thousands...the 300K figure is the one that appeared in the G&M
Ménard (BQ): so you WEREN'T the one who said there was a payment of 100K?
Luc Lavoie: said that last fall, but first time figures put forward was in the article by William Kaplan in the G&M
Ménard (BQ): and the first time you realized BM said it was 75K, did you find out at the same time as we did?
Luc Lavoie: no, a little before that. A few weeks before that.
Ménard (BQ): I imagine you understood, as of the moment BM received cash from KHS, in cash, that if that were known, some would think that would be confirmation of what was in the RCMP's letter. But, as far as you were concerned, there was another reason for payments...
Luc Lavoie: you're referring to RCMP LOR (letter of request), I would just say we should remember that that LOR referred to a Swiss bank acct, code name "DEVON," and ...
Ménard (BQ): but there was also the "BRITAIN" acct...
Luc Lavoie: there were 5Mill dollars deposited, kickbacks on sale of AB to Air Canada and these MBB helicopters to coast guard and so-called BHP. Put things in proper context: money paid for retainer? This money paid after he left office, for different work, no connection...nothing to do with this matter.
Ménard (BQ): perfectly legit transaction? That explained basis of some rumours that were going around...
Luc Lavoie: I wouldn't speculate on that
Ménard (BQ): Why, then, did you not advise him to say publicly, that that transaction w/KHS had taken place or to advise BM to explain right away, particularly w/rumours out there. Why not say that it was for legit work (and dispel rumours)?
Luc Lavoie: Well, I've had many, many conversations w/him and wouldn't say that I never advised that. That was considered.
Ménard (BQ): when did you find out that BM had kept it in 1000$ bills, here, when he testified to this committee? Do you think that would have been tougher to explain?
Luc Lavoie: I'm sorry, could you clarify?
Ménard (BQ): it looks suspicious. Makes relationship look fishy. You must have understood that. A PM getting cash in 1000$ bills in envelope. He keeps it in a safety deposit box for years...don't you think it makes things look even stranger?
Luc Lavoie: not really
Ménard (BQ): but you don't know what he did w/cash?
Luc Lavoie: no, I don't know what he did w/his own business.
3:49 PM
Martin (NDP): You were instrumental in helping BM win 2.1 mill libel suit against gov. In settlement reached, roughly 1.4 mill went to lawyers and $587 721 went to your firm, "National Public Relations"
Luc Lavoie: no, the money wasn't to me, it went to HIM. Money adjudicated by arbitration process lead by the late Allan Gold
Martin (NDP): correct. So the 587K+ worth of PR, specific to your time as communications Director, from 1995 onwards (i.e. not to Lavoie's time in PMO). Now, a lot of Canadians want to recoup that 2.1 mill. To earn that amount (587K), you must have been quite helpful to him...BM talked about that period being very difficult for him. Did you never ask him, "If I'm gonna represent you, Brian, did you or did you not accept money from KHS? It's gonna be integral to my convincing Canadians," did you not ask him that, at any time?
Luc Lavoie: uh...not exactly. I ask a question the day he contacted me, Mon, Nov 13, 1995. I was in Ottawa, he asked me to come to Montreal to see him. I met him the following morning at his home. He told me what he was faced w/, this LOR. I asked him if there was any truth to the LOR, and he said, "Absolutely not."
Martin (NDP): so YOU weren't lying to the people of Canada. He was lying to YOU.
Luc Lavoie: there was no truth to what was in that LOR
Martin (NDP): We paid him 2.1 mill b/c it was alleged that KHS gave him money, and now that we know that he did...
Luc Lavoie: (interrupting) no...
Martin (NDP): that's an extraordinary thing.
Luc Lavoie: I don't agree with what you said, by the way...
3:52 PM
Mulcair (NDP): thank you. You spoke about a lawyer who said BM received money. The one that spoke to you in 2000...
Luc Lavoie: Gérald Tremblay
Mulcair (NDP): you used the word, "retainer." Do you remember whether conversation took place in English or French?
Luc Lavoie: French
Mulcair (NDP): and he used the word, "retainer?" This is a word that is rarely used outside of the language, except in legal language. I think BM was already an associate in law firm in Montreal. Was he working as a lawyer for this retainer?
Luc Lavoie: maybe yes, maybe no, but I was in PR and we also had retainers.
Mulcair (NDP): but you would have still had to explain why he received these 100s of thousands of dollars. You had to have asked what it was for...
Luc Lavoie: the question wasn't about that. The reason M Tremblay called was b/c I was being sued by KHS for defamation, slander, and it was clear I needed that info
Mulcair (NDP): and you, M Lavoie, what did YOU understand that BM had done for these retainers?
Luc Lavoie: I understood that he took retainer to represent those firms
Mulcair (NDP): that's what you understood then? The purposes of representation?
Luc Lavoie: yes.
Mulcair (NDP): BM told us that he kept CANADIAN 1000$ bills (cash) in US, in a sdb. Can you explain that? What expenses can be paid in the States w/Canadian 1000$ bills?
Luc Lavoie: I wasn't involved, so I can't answer
Mulcair (NDP): it's your former boss who can tell us? I'm going to come back to Thibault's and Ménard's question, b/c I'm still not convinced by your answer. You're the spokesperson for the former PM and you're hired to give his version of facts and you're doing it very well. You went before cameras in fall 97 and said (three times!) "100K." I'm seeking, in vain, where BM contradicted you publicly, and I can't find it, except when he came before us and told us it was 3 X 75K, instead. Given your expertise in PR, why is it that as soon as you mentioned 100K, why you didn't immediately correct yourself?
Luc Lavoie: I would like to correct you: I didn't speak before the cameras
Mulcair (NDP): but you said it publicly. You say you have no answer to give me?
Luc Lavoie: I'm not refusing to answer. I don't HAVE an answer.
Mulcair (NDP): you said 300K. Mr. M is your client. Did he contact you right away and say, "hey, Lavoie, it's not 300K." Did he call you to ask you to retract?
Luc Lavoie: he called that evening
Mulcair (NDP): why didn't you correct stmt?
Luc Lavoie: in the media climate at time, everything was blown out of proportion. Unbelievable. It was better, rightly or wrongly, and agreed that he would come here and testify to the facts.
Coming up next: Part III ("I know you're no stranger to profanity..."), or return to Part I ("Luc & Brian, BFF")
"Can we talk" pic courtesy of this marketing wiz-cum-blogger
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