Former Mulroney Chief of Staff Norman Spector presented himself to the Commons Ethics committee on February 5. As with last Fall's testimony, the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.Brother, those ain't Girl Guides!
4:07 PM
Hiebert (CPC): it's well known that the RCMP spent years and likely millions of dollars investigating Airbus (AB) purchase by Air Canada and Bear Head Project (BHP). But the RCMP concluded that the remaining allegations could not be substantiated and no charges will be laid. First of all, do you have any evidence of wrongdoing, by any public official, relating to AB?
Norman Spector: I wasn't in Ottawa when the AB contract was...
Hiebert (CPC): so you have no evidence
Norman Spector: (annoyed) with respect, your cmte invited me here today. You knew I was not in Ottawa in 1995. Don't know why you're interrogating me today. You clearly thought that the things I've written--assuming you've read them--(*snerk*) this cmte clearly thought I had relevant things to say. (Man, is he annoyed!) As to your citation of RCMP's stmt, I don't believe them! And I think Canadians are very sceptical of the RCMP, for all kinds of reasons, including those which have taken place in BC recently. Or a certain announcement that took place in the last election campaign. I don't believe them! I think you should get them here, under oath, and I'll give you the name of the inspector...I think the RCMP is part of this problem.
Norman Spector: You're from BC, so you know: we've had two premiers investigated by special prosecutors, criminal charges laid, and both acquitted. Our justice system doesn't demand convictions. Third premier investigated and not charged and BColumbians said, "that's fine, too." In Ottawa, the score card is ZERO, at whatever level of executive council. I've worked in Victoria and in Ottawa and I can tell you, that politicians in Victoria are no more corrupt than in Ottawa. You need a transparent process. Stephen Owen, his recommendation, as ombudsman of BC, to ensure equal justice, sometimes you have to put in place special arrangements for political cases. In BC, when allegation made against politician, assistant AG, a career public servant hires an outside counsel, hired by Bar association and that person investigates. That is a clean system, one that's used by British cousins (or looking into it, anyway). It's the system that Harper talked about in last campaign, a special prosecutor's office ...that's what we need in Ottawa to stop the slide in Transparency International numbers.
Hiebert (CPC): I appreciate that, Mr. Spector, and I'm glad to see those (TI) numbers improve over the last few years (barf!). I wannu give you the opportunity to give evidence of wrongdoing, relating to consulting agreement btwn BM and KHS, or with respect to AB, these are all elements of mandate of cmte.
Norman Spector: no evidence one way or another
Hiebert (CPC): re Cape Breton BHP, when was it finally rejected by govf?
Norman Spector: I don't know that it ever was
Hiebert (CPC): but you mentioned that BM killed it...
Norman Spector: he did, but it seemed to come back, it was like the Phoenix (eye-roll). Give you two anecdotes, one from Harry Swain, dep min, at his first briefing of his minister, John Manley. He asked if Swain had any advice for a new minister, and he said he had two pieces of advice: first, you should read "Yes, Minister." Secondly, don't ever meet w/KHS. Second anecdote by Glenn Shortliffe (former clerk of Privy Council) talking about BHP, it was like whackamole. Want to know if more than smoke there. Wouldn't die.
Hiebert (CPC): can you tell us what you told RCMP when they asked you about the BHP?
Norman Spector: to save you time, it's all in the stmt that I gave them. Avail to your cmte. Sworn, signed stmt. All there and I wouldn't change a word.
Hiebert (CPC): any new info?
Norman Spector: I have new info, learned subsequently that BHP didn't die. When I left PMO, I thought it was dead. When I came back from Middle East, I was astonished to learn that Marc Lalonde was involved in some way...
Hiebert (CPC): do you have any evidence relating to BHP (new)?
Norman Spector: no
4:14 PM
Szabo (chair, LPC): with respect to the identity of the RCMP officer you referred to, was that Insp. L. Matthews?
Norman Spector: yes
Szabo (chair, LPC): wrt expense report, the 101K from 96-97, annualized to 135K, can you confirm that reimbursement of personal expenses (Palm Beach trips, Rome, flowers, theatre...) all personal not having to do w/his work as Prime Minister?
Norman Spector: it says "personal" as you can see for yourself
Szabo (chair, LPC): you said that it was determined by Revenue Canada that these weren't taxable?
Norman Spector: (emphasizing) On the FIRST arrangement. I know nothing on this arrangement, including relating to taxation
Dhaliwal (LPC): as PC party treasurer in early 90s, was Jim Prentice aware of those payments to BM?
Norman Spector: never knew Prentice. Didn't know him then and don't know him now. My understanding is that current Sen. Angus was a key player in these arrangements.
Dhaliwal (LPC): you mentioned that while Doucet was lobbyist, that he would bring people to BM's office and wouldn't be on the schedule. Can you explain?
Norman Spector: most of you are aware of the office upstairs, the PM's corner office-one side you'll find the secretary, and other side, there's an office where CoS worked. I would work in the Longevin office most times, but sometimes I'd be in little CoS upstairs. I'd see Doucette bringing people to see BM, and "they didn't look like Girl-Guides going in to get their photos taken with the PM" They were wearing suits.
Dhaliwal (LPC): do you have a copy of your stmt to RCMP in 1995? Can you table it?
Norman Spector: sure. If you don't have it, pleased to give it to you.
Dhaliwal (LPC): was it Lowell Murray who informed you that it was Hugh Segal who took over BHP?
Norman Spector: I was out of the country, and saw article in Globe saying Lalonde and Mr. MacKay had posted bond for Mr. Schreiber-in 1997 or 98. I'd worked very closely w/Lowell Murray during Meech Lake and asked him "what gives? I thought project was dead" and he said, "Oh no, it kept coming back, and even Hughie had dealt with it." I'm not accusing Mr. Segal of any wrongdoing, I'm just saying that the BHP had come back during Segal's time and Mr. Segal gave it (BHP) the back of his hand, too. That was before KHS did courtesy call at Harrington Lake (1988 end of term).
Dhaliwal (LPC): you know KHS has filed a suit against gov for not following through on 88 understanding in princ. When did KHS first raise this with you?
Norman Spector: he never raised this with me, but what I found most offensive about dealing with (KHS) was that he was basically engaged in process of character assassination of public servants. Alleging that his difficulties were the result of certain officials being in the pockets of General Motors (?!), who were the supplier of LAVs to military. These people were my colleagues and I knew they weren't in anybody's pockets.
Continue to Part IV ("Hey! You invited *me*!") or return to Part II ("What's a nice hack like you doing in a place like this?").
Shopping kitties courtesy of Icanhascheezburger.com
Hiebert (CPC): it's well known that the RCMP spent years and likely millions of dollars investigating Airbus (AB) purchase by Air Canada and Bear Head Project (BHP). But the RCMP concluded that the remaining allegations could not be substantiated and no charges will be laid. First of all, do you have any evidence of wrongdoing, by any public official, relating to AB?
Norman Spector: I wasn't in Ottawa when the AB contract was...
Hiebert (CPC): so you have no evidence
Norman Spector: (annoyed) with respect, your cmte invited me here today. You knew I was not in Ottawa in 1995. Don't know why you're interrogating me today. You clearly thought that the things I've written--assuming you've read them--(*snerk*) this cmte clearly thought I had relevant things to say. (Man, is he annoyed!) As to your citation of RCMP's stmt, I don't believe them! And I think Canadians are very sceptical of the RCMP, for all kinds of reasons, including those which have taken place in BC recently. Or a certain announcement that took place in the last election campaign. I don't believe them! I think you should get them here, under oath, and I'll give you the name of the inspector...I think the RCMP is part of this problem.
Norman Spector: You're from BC, so you know: we've had two premiers investigated by special prosecutors, criminal charges laid, and both acquitted. Our justice system doesn't demand convictions. Third premier investigated and not charged and BColumbians said, "that's fine, too." In Ottawa, the score card is ZERO, at whatever level of executive council. I've worked in Victoria and in Ottawa and I can tell you, that politicians in Victoria are no more corrupt than in Ottawa. You need a transparent process. Stephen Owen, his recommendation, as ombudsman of BC, to ensure equal justice, sometimes you have to put in place special arrangements for political cases. In BC, when allegation made against politician, assistant AG, a career public servant hires an outside counsel, hired by Bar association and that person investigates. That is a clean system, one that's used by British cousins (or looking into it, anyway). It's the system that Harper talked about in last campaign, a special prosecutor's office ...that's what we need in Ottawa to stop the slide in Transparency International numbers.
Hiebert (CPC): I appreciate that, Mr. Spector, and I'm glad to see those (TI) numbers improve over the last few years (barf!). I wannu give you the opportunity to give evidence of wrongdoing, relating to consulting agreement btwn BM and KHS, or with respect to AB, these are all elements of mandate of cmte.
Norman Spector: no evidence one way or another
Hiebert (CPC): re Cape Breton BHP, when was it finally rejected by govf?
Norman Spector: I don't know that it ever was
Hiebert (CPC): but you mentioned that BM killed it...
Norman Spector: he did, but it seemed to come back, it was like the Phoenix (eye-roll). Give you two anecdotes, one from Harry Swain, dep min, at his first briefing of his minister, John Manley. He asked if Swain had any advice for a new minister, and he said he had two pieces of advice: first, you should read "Yes, Minister." Secondly, don't ever meet w/KHS. Second anecdote by Glenn Shortliffe (former clerk of Privy Council) talking about BHP, it was like whackamole. Want to know if more than smoke there. Wouldn't die.
Hiebert (CPC): can you tell us what you told RCMP when they asked you about the BHP?
Norman Spector: to save you time, it's all in the stmt that I gave them. Avail to your cmte. Sworn, signed stmt. All there and I wouldn't change a word.
Hiebert (CPC): any new info?
Norman Spector: I have new info, learned subsequently that BHP didn't die. When I left PMO, I thought it was dead. When I came back from Middle East, I was astonished to learn that Marc Lalonde was involved in some way...
Hiebert (CPC): do you have any evidence relating to BHP (new)?
Norman Spector: no
4:14 PM
Szabo (chair, LPC): with respect to the identity of the RCMP officer you referred to, was that Insp. L. Matthews?
Norman Spector: yes
Szabo (chair, LPC): wrt expense report, the 101K from 96-97, annualized to 135K, can you confirm that reimbursement of personal expenses (Palm Beach trips, Rome, flowers, theatre...) all personal not having to do w/his work as Prime Minister?
Norman Spector: it says "personal" as you can see for yourself
Szabo (chair, LPC): you said that it was determined by Revenue Canada that these weren't taxable?
Norman Spector: (emphasizing) On the FIRST arrangement. I know nothing on this arrangement, including relating to taxation
Dhaliwal (LPC): as PC party treasurer in early 90s, was Jim Prentice aware of those payments to BM?
Norman Spector: never knew Prentice. Didn't know him then and don't know him now. My understanding is that current Sen. Angus was a key player in these arrangements.
Dhaliwal (LPC): you mentioned that while Doucet was lobbyist, that he would bring people to BM's office and wouldn't be on the schedule. Can you explain?
Norman Spector: most of you are aware of the office upstairs, the PM's corner office-one side you'll find the secretary, and other side, there's an office where CoS worked. I would work in the Longevin office most times, but sometimes I'd be in little CoS upstairs. I'd see Doucette bringing people to see BM, and "they didn't look like Girl-Guides going in to get their photos taken with the PM" They were wearing suits.
Dhaliwal (LPC): do you have a copy of your stmt to RCMP in 1995? Can you table it?
Norman Spector: sure. If you don't have it, pleased to give it to you.
Dhaliwal (LPC): was it Lowell Murray who informed you that it was Hugh Segal who took over BHP?
Norman Spector: I was out of the country, and saw article in Globe saying Lalonde and Mr. MacKay had posted bond for Mr. Schreiber-in 1997 or 98. I'd worked very closely w/Lowell Murray during Meech Lake and asked him "what gives? I thought project was dead" and he said, "Oh no, it kept coming back, and even Hughie had dealt with it." I'm not accusing Mr. Segal of any wrongdoing, I'm just saying that the BHP had come back during Segal's time and Mr. Segal gave it (BHP) the back of his hand, too. That was before KHS did courtesy call at Harrington Lake (1988 end of term).
Dhaliwal (LPC): you know KHS has filed a suit against gov for not following through on 88 understanding in princ. When did KHS first raise this with you?
Norman Spector: he never raised this with me, but what I found most offensive about dealing with (KHS) was that he was basically engaged in process of character assassination of public servants. Alleging that his difficulties were the result of certain officials being in the pockets of General Motors (?!), who were the supplier of LAVs to military. These people were my colleagues and I knew they weren't in anybody's pockets.
Continue to Part IV ("Hey! You invited *me*!") or return to Part II ("What's a nice hack like you doing in a place like this?").
Shopping kitties courtesy of Icanhascheezburger.com
No comments:
Post a Comment