Former Mulroney Chief of Staff Norman Spector presented himself to the Commons Ethics committee on February 5. As with last Fall's testimony, the following is NOT a transcript, so quote at your own risk ;) Time-stamps are approximate. You can return to the beginning of this 'series,' by clicking here: Part I.
What's a nice hack like you doing in a place like this?
3:51 PM
Lavallée (BQ): Thanks for being here. You would agree w/François Martin who said at 24 Sussex, cash came as though it were from heaven. Culture of cash. Why were cheques made out to you? Why not to BM or Mrs. M?
Norman Spector: good question and I can't answer it. Perhaps I've raised some issues today that need answering. First meeting w/BM when offered job, he explained that all my predecessors had performed that duty and that that would be one of them. Second point, it seemed reasonable, first of all, I knew Mr. Davis (Premier Ontario) had arrangement of this type. Used to work for BC provincial politician.
Lavallée (BQ): was he paid directly by cheque? (former boss in BC)
Norman Spector: don't know, I wasn't involved directly in the process as it existed in BC. He had a principal secretary in his office.
Lavallée (BQ): when you got cheques, did you have to provide invoices or receipts?
Norman Spector: submitted by Mrs M and someone from our staff looked to see which ones qualified
Lavallée (BQ): were they mainly personal?
Norman Spector: I don't know. I trusted that individual on my team (public servant from foreign affairs) that he would do it properly
Lavallée (BQ): you didn't wonder, then, why not give money directly to BM? Even an intelligent person like yourself? (BTW, I *heart* Lavallée! Such a flirt!)
Norman Spector: even an intelligent person like myself didn't wonder about that...(*snerk*)
Lavallée (BQ): surprising
Norman Spector: yes, it is
Lavallée (BQ): but it was to add to the salary of BM who was making...
Norman Spector: I wasn't present at the meeting w/party and BM when reached the agreement on this arrangement. All I know is that it existed
Lavallée (BQ): on the 14th Nov last year, you said that the BM/KHS affair could be one of "the worst scandals in Canadian history." You really think that the behaviour of the Conservatives at the time, was worse than sponsorship?
Norman Spector: I don't know, which is why I'm asking you to pursue this matter. There's at least 10 mill dollars and don't know what happened to it.
Lavallée (BQ): where do you think it went?
Norman Spector: don't know, but not ruling out possibility that KHS kept it for himself. Don't know.
Lavallée (BQ): turn floor to M. Ménard
3:56 PM
Ménard (BQ): I accept your assessment but I disagree with you about this cmte-this cmte does not allow us to get to the bottom of things unless we take a huuuuuuge amount of time. We have just a few mins to ask question, so nothing like commission of inquiry.
Norman Spector: I'm impressed by your skills (Menard's X-exam of BM) in questioning BM. I was really struck...(Ha! Now look who's flirting!)
Ménard (BQ): (laughing) we've no time for compliments! Later, please! (*snort*) Let's get to the heart of the matter...you've given us a few figures, 60K/yr in nine months and 100K...all this money that was coming in, it came from same source? PC Canada fund?
Norman Spector: yes
Ménard (BQ): you started your intro by talking about the culture of lobbyists that existed. If I understand correctly, someone who wanted to influence gov couldn't give money directly to PM, but coulda given it to PC fund?
Norman Spector: no, I'm speaking out against system that exists in Ottawa...KHS said it, in order to do business in government of Can, you have to hire a lobbyist
Ménard (BQ): in Québec, everyone thinks it would never happen to René Lévesque
Norman Spector: (chuckling) I remember some stories about "Oxygene" ...it is a bipartisan problem in Ottawa. There's also the NDP and Bloc, who've never been in gov. Not the case in Québec. There are some stories...
3:59 PM
Martin (NDP): thank you for taking part in this wretched process...as wretched as it may be, it's all we have currently. Mr. M has said over and over again that he had nothing to do with choice of Air Canada to purchase AB, and yet he fired 13/14 Board of Directors at AC in '85. You were CoS?
Norman Spector: no, I wasn't even in Ottawa then...I arrived in 1986. The RCMP came to ACOA looking for copy of the agreement in our files, b/c ACOA was the lead agency. It was only by accident that I was there. They didn't come looking for me for a stmt about BH. Talked to srgt and came out that I was in PMO. Asked if I knew anything about AB, and I said no, so we talked about BH.
Martin (NDP): fair enough, we'll move on to influence of corporate lobbyists. Frequency and regularity of visits to PMO--you said some of these were not scheduled, you had Frank Moores...
Norman Spector: no, I was speaking about Fred Doucet.
Martin (NDP): did you see KHS?
Norman Spector: I met w/KHS. After I was handed the BH file, I met w/him to get his side of story. It was that which lead that...
Martin (NDP): what year?
Norman Spector: 1990
Martin (NDP): BM swore that in 1986 he had only passing acquaintances w/KHS. True?
Norman Spector: during those years, I had no knowledge of him dealing w/KHS, but after being handed BH file, I learned subsequent to 1996 that it certainly looks like BM had more than passing dealings with KHS
Mulcair (NDP): want to go back to your stmt about RCMP "botched the investigation" into AB matter. Are there things contained in Johnston's report--two surprising things in there. He talks about "well tilled ground" and quotes two books by Stevie Cameron, which is odd way of saying we don't need to investigate. Another thing concerns me a little, since the beg there's been vagueness in RCMP, it says Mr. S was questioned many times by RCMP. All of that was *after* settlement of AB. To your knowledge, dating back to 1995, did you speak to KHS? (????)
Norman Spector: the stmt that this is "well tilled ground" is absolutely incorrect. Might not be common knowledge, but know from Kaplan (book, Secret Trial) you can buy in bookstore (someone interrupts: "very hard to find!") Yes, [the book] was almost nipped in the bud by McGill press...
Mulcair (NDP): (laughing) like to have answer to my question...
Norman Spector: Sorry. You were speaking about the cash. The RCMP did NOT know about the cash when they said the investigation was over. Mr. Kaplan, if you meet him, he has impeccable sources...they did NOT know, they just had a rumour about it, which makes it even more extraordinary. They don't shut down murder investigations--they allow them to go cold, sure, but they don't shut them down. On question of whether they did/didn't, you'll have to ask RCMP themselves. I suspect people are playing games w/word "Airbus"--it's a contract but also an affair, involving many different scandals. This is an example of evasiveness
Mulcair (NDP): I'm the one who asked Mr. S whether the RCMP had spoken with him before the settlement to BM, but that's not what comes out of Johnson's report
Norman Spector: when RCMP interviewed me in 95, they were at the very beginning of their investigation. Just a feeling though, not based on fact.
Continue to Part III ("Brother, those ain't Girl Guides!") or return to Part I ("Don't let this become Frank Magazine").
"Flirt" poster from La Belle Cuisine
Lavallée (BQ): Thanks for being here. You would agree w/François Martin who said at 24 Sussex, cash came as though it were from heaven. Culture of cash. Why were cheques made out to you? Why not to BM or Mrs. M?
Norman Spector: good question and I can't answer it. Perhaps I've raised some issues today that need answering. First meeting w/BM when offered job, he explained that all my predecessors had performed that duty and that that would be one of them. Second point, it seemed reasonable, first of all, I knew Mr. Davis (Premier Ontario) had arrangement of this type. Used to work for BC provincial politician.
Lavallée (BQ): was he paid directly by cheque? (former boss in BC)
Norman Spector: don't know, I wasn't involved directly in the process as it existed in BC. He had a principal secretary in his office.
Lavallée (BQ): when you got cheques, did you have to provide invoices or receipts?
Norman Spector: submitted by Mrs M and someone from our staff looked to see which ones qualified
Lavallée (BQ): were they mainly personal?
Norman Spector: I don't know. I trusted that individual on my team (public servant from foreign affairs) that he would do it properly
Lavallée (BQ): you didn't wonder, then, why not give money directly to BM? Even an intelligent person like yourself? (BTW, I *heart* Lavallée! Such a flirt!)
Norman Spector: even an intelligent person like myself didn't wonder about that...(*snerk*)
Lavallée (BQ): surprising
Norman Spector: yes, it is
Lavallée (BQ): but it was to add to the salary of BM who was making...
Norman Spector: I wasn't present at the meeting w/party and BM when reached the agreement on this arrangement. All I know is that it existed
Lavallée (BQ): on the 14th Nov last year, you said that the BM/KHS affair could be one of "the worst scandals in Canadian history." You really think that the behaviour of the Conservatives at the time, was worse than sponsorship?
Norman Spector: I don't know, which is why I'm asking you to pursue this matter. There's at least 10 mill dollars and don't know what happened to it.
Lavallée (BQ): where do you think it went?
Norman Spector: don't know, but not ruling out possibility that KHS kept it for himself. Don't know.
Lavallée (BQ): turn floor to M. Ménard
3:56 PM
Ménard (BQ): I accept your assessment but I disagree with you about this cmte-this cmte does not allow us to get to the bottom of things unless we take a huuuuuuge amount of time. We have just a few mins to ask question, so nothing like commission of inquiry.
Norman Spector: I'm impressed by your skills (Menard's X-exam of BM) in questioning BM. I was really struck...(Ha! Now look who's flirting!)
Ménard (BQ): (laughing) we've no time for compliments! Later, please! (*snort*) Let's get to the heart of the matter...you've given us a few figures, 60K/yr in nine months and 100K...all this money that was coming in, it came from same source? PC Canada fund?
Norman Spector: yes
Ménard (BQ): you started your intro by talking about the culture of lobbyists that existed. If I understand correctly, someone who wanted to influence gov couldn't give money directly to PM, but coulda given it to PC fund?
Norman Spector: no, I'm speaking out against system that exists in Ottawa...KHS said it, in order to do business in government of Can, you have to hire a lobbyist
Ménard (BQ): in Québec, everyone thinks it would never happen to René Lévesque
Norman Spector: (chuckling) I remember some stories about "Oxygene" ...it is a bipartisan problem in Ottawa. There's also the NDP and Bloc, who've never been in gov. Not the case in Québec. There are some stories...
3:59 PM
Martin (NDP): thank you for taking part in this wretched process...as wretched as it may be, it's all we have currently. Mr. M has said over and over again that he had nothing to do with choice of Air Canada to purchase AB, and yet he fired 13/14 Board of Directors at AC in '85. You were CoS?
Norman Spector: no, I wasn't even in Ottawa then...I arrived in 1986. The RCMP came to ACOA looking for copy of the agreement in our files, b/c ACOA was the lead agency. It was only by accident that I was there. They didn't come looking for me for a stmt about BH. Talked to srgt and came out that I was in PMO. Asked if I knew anything about AB, and I said no, so we talked about BH.
Martin (NDP): fair enough, we'll move on to influence of corporate lobbyists. Frequency and regularity of visits to PMO--you said some of these were not scheduled, you had Frank Moores...
Norman Spector: no, I was speaking about Fred Doucet.
Martin (NDP): did you see KHS?
Norman Spector: I met w/KHS. After I was handed the BH file, I met w/him to get his side of story. It was that which lead that...
Martin (NDP): what year?
Norman Spector: 1990
Martin (NDP): BM swore that in 1986 he had only passing acquaintances w/KHS. True?
Norman Spector: during those years, I had no knowledge of him dealing w/KHS, but after being handed BH file, I learned subsequent to 1996 that it certainly looks like BM had more than passing dealings with KHS
Mulcair (NDP): want to go back to your stmt about RCMP "botched the investigation" into AB matter. Are there things contained in Johnston's report--two surprising things in there. He talks about "well tilled ground" and quotes two books by Stevie Cameron, which is odd way of saying we don't need to investigate. Another thing concerns me a little, since the beg there's been vagueness in RCMP, it says Mr. S was questioned many times by RCMP. All of that was *after* settlement of AB. To your knowledge, dating back to 1995, did you speak to KHS? (????)
Norman Spector: the stmt that this is "well tilled ground" is absolutely incorrect. Might not be common knowledge, but know from Kaplan (book, Secret Trial) you can buy in bookstore (someone interrupts: "very hard to find!") Yes, [the book] was almost nipped in the bud by McGill press...
Mulcair (NDP): (laughing) like to have answer to my question...
Norman Spector: Sorry. You were speaking about the cash. The RCMP did NOT know about the cash when they said the investigation was over. Mr. Kaplan, if you meet him, he has impeccable sources...they did NOT know, they just had a rumour about it, which makes it even more extraordinary. They don't shut down murder investigations--they allow them to go cold, sure, but they don't shut them down. On question of whether they did/didn't, you'll have to ask RCMP themselves. I suspect people are playing games w/word "Airbus"--it's a contract but also an affair, involving many different scandals. This is an example of evasiveness
Mulcair (NDP): I'm the one who asked Mr. S whether the RCMP had spoken with him before the settlement to BM, but that's not what comes out of Johnson's report
Norman Spector: when RCMP interviewed me in 95, they were at the very beginning of their investigation. Just a feeling though, not based on fact.
Continue to Part III ("Brother, those ain't Girl Guides!") or return to Part I ("Don't let this become Frank Magazine").
"Flirt" poster from La Belle Cuisine
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